Should I leave Goonstation?

[Ed Venture]

Wonk has given me permission to make this thread.

As many of you know I have a habit of letting my love and passion for this game trump my reason when it comes to discussing this game and I have been overly aggressive in alot of cases since 2014. This has been said to me many times by the administration but when it comes to the community at most people have told me I don't take enough time to collect my thoughts properly and that makes me my worst enemy.

I'm not the same person I was in 2014 I've made improvements, I thank coders for changes and for running the servers. I check the changelog to do just that not just to see how the game changed. I feel my improvements have been ignored, as wonk told me that's just human nature to remember the bad more than the good.

I don't need to be banned if the admins and the community voice they want me gone from the fourms, discord, game or all three then I'd like to hear it. I'll leave, no fuss needed and hopefully I can come back in a few years and we can all have good times again. I feel if I was as bad as some admins say I am then why have I been allowed to stay around for eight years at this point.

Please voice your thoughts on the subject and I thank you for taking the time to not only read this but discussing it as well. Goonstation is Space Station 13 to me and thinking about leaving has been hard on me as this game and this community has been a huge part of my life for years now.

[Mordent]

Oh boy.

When you play the game I have zero problem with you; quite the opposite, in fact, you're a generally decent spaceman to have around. I could probably write a couple of paragraphs here that have positive opinions of you in-game, so just assume I did that. The rest of this post is going to be fairly brutally honest opinions on my part, not necessarily reflective of the admins' opinion as a whole. You asked for this.

The problems mainly come when you voice your opinions on the state of the game/some change that was implemented. I know you've had some positive reactions to some of the changes, but they're massively overshadowed by both your multi-paragraph rants that have little substance about how this is a Terrible Thing, or just snarky one-liners that add nothing to the conversation other than sour the mood, which can completely derail a thread.

Combine this with your passsive-aggressive "I've been saying this forever", "I've been playing for X years", and "it's never going to change" stuff, and interacting with you out of the game is massive chore.

Your constant snark to the admins/coders is grating and kills the passion of others for the game, despite you claiming to be passionate about it yourself. This is probably not felt by a chunk of the playerbase, because it's not their work and effort you're snarking at, but I assure you that, as a collective, our response to seeing that you've posted in something is a sigh and an eyeroll before going to see what we did "wrong" this time.

Random name-dropping of "this particular admin said I was okay" in places where your disposition is challenged really doesn't work for me, either. All it does is mean that I either have to keep at my point despite you hiding behind some other admin as an involuntary shield, or just do what I do most of the time and drop it because it is exhausting. You may take this as validation that the name you dropped had the right opinion (whether you've portrayed it correctly or not), but it's really just a case of "I have a finite amount of minutes on this world and I have other things to do".

Before you ask, I don't care to go find examples of any of the above. I really don't. Don't ask. I don't need to back up my opinion, because I've got actual shit to do rather than spending time on... whatever this is?

My understanding regarding the lack of a ban is simply that, while a massive debbie-downer, you weren't breaking rules, which is what bans are primarily for. Conversely, being a constant negative influence on the community is a justifiable reason for a ban, so I'm absolutely with Wonk on his ultimatum regarding cutting the snark.

On the topic of snark: as admins/coders we are all for constructive criticisms of changes. Seriously. Players don't know what they want most of the time, so we'll always take feedback cautiously; kneejerk reactions to changes are harsher than longer-term feelings once things have settled.

Voice your opinions in a way that doesn't come across as whiny, snarky, shitty, or just generally like some sort of tenured snob and we will absolutely take them into consideration. We may not act on them, even if it's the majority opinion, but learning how to constructively criticise something is something you need to learn how to do, and I'm talking from a general standpoint, not just in the forusm.

Not directed entirely at you, but whenever I read "back in <year>" or similar I completely discount anything else said. This is in part because I wasn't playing back then, so really don't give a flying crap about how it was but about how it is now and how we're going to improve it. Nostalgia for the days of yore is one thing, but guess what? Things change. Just because X applied back then doesn't mean X also applies now.

All of the above is from the viewpoint of a coder who's not really had any of my work directly negatively whined at by you; heck, you liked my monkey suit stuff. Now imagine how someone who you've directly been keyboard-warrioring with feels.

Should you stay? I don't care one way or the other with the following caveat: if you're posting in the forums, before hitting the post button go re-read your post and strip out anything that's a) unrelated to the thread (whether it's been derailed already or not), b) a comment regarding how long you've been playing, c) a comment about how things "used" to be, or d) just negativity without suggestions for improvement or justification (i.e. negative criticism that isn't constructive). If the stuff that's left isn't actually contributing anything, discard the post and try again some other time.

A couple of things that I personally don't enjoy seeing thrown around the echo chamber (there's no rule against them or anything, it's just negativity for the sake of negativity): suggestions that admins don't respond to adminhelps, suggestions that security don't get enough lee-way to deal with near-griefing crew, and suggestions that "this hasn't changed in forever so it's clear the admins/coders/others don't care what I/we think". I'm not looking to debate whether you've personally done these or not, as I am not interested in finding examples, but suffice to say I vehemently disagree with the first two, and the last one is just pointless noise. If your posting amounts to one of the above, sometimes it's better to just say nothing at all.

Honestly, you're fine in-game and (mostly) in IRC/Discord. My recommendation is just play again, maybe lurk on the forums, and once you've adjusted to some of the new dynamics in the game since your hiatus (people actually play security a bit more these days, shock/horror) consider coming in with some posts that aren't huge, sweeping suggestions for changes or the passive-aggressive stuff listed above. Play the game itself rather than spend more time in the forums, and you might find yourself enjoying it more. I know I do.

Hope that all helps clear things up from my point of view.

[amaranthineApocalypse]

Well, here's my two cents on the matter.

No. I don't think you should leave. You're one of the few older players who's still around, as far as i can tell you're genuinely dedicated to the game and all things considered, you do actually have genuinely good ideas a lot of the time and in my opinion, it'd be a crying fucking shame to lose all that because, let's face it, that's a combination that's pretty hard to come by. You're a valuable member of the community and don't you ever think otherwise.

That's not to say i don't have my problems with you. Quite the opposite in fact, but they mostly come down to two factors.

You have a tendency to not read posts properly then respond based on what you think they said and put words into peoples mouths, and you have a tendency towards a horrific level of negativity. The latter is bad enough on it's own, but the combination can be downright fucking insufferable at times. I'll be the first to admit that i do kinda shy away from responding to you because of it.

That being said, i think if you'd just properly read people's ideas before replying to them and think of a couple of positive things to say, or suggest ways to fix the problems you've spotted instead of just saying "It'll be horrifically abused" then it'd solve the vast majority of problems that people have with you and that everyone involved, including yourself, would have a much more enjoyable time of it.

Granted, i don't really see you too much outside of the ideas forum, so there may be things i haven't touched upon.

[Ed Venture]

Long post

When I name drop someone I have good times with it's not to hide behind them it's to show someone has noticed I've made changes to my attitude which I feel go unnoticed by many.

I feel it's important to criticize what you love or nothing really changes. I've never demanded something to be changed cause I did not like it, I've always had various reasons to why something should be changed. Sometimes I feel coders have a hard time hearing their change effected the game in a bad way. While understandable this can get frustrating from a player's point of view even more so when months pass and mass amount of players say a change effects the game in a bad way and we just get silence as a response most of the time (mainly in the past after the pull nerf thread this has finally changed and I am grateful for it).

My Number one goal in this community for the longest time has been to get admins to be more transparent with their changes and future plans. This seems to be finally achieved but has left me jaded when I really should be happy. I disagree that I am a constant Debbie downer on here. I have my moment but 2016 to Now has been rather positive till I was threaten with a Ban.

I made that post to Wonk out of Frustration as I have been talking about these issues with Security since May-July 2017 and people told me it was because of my playstyle and nothing else and this was said without them playing with me or watching me as a HoS, so that post was made as I felt the issues with security have been ignored for awhile now. After that post I saw numerous changes to Security that made me feel quite foolish. I've apologized to Wonk many times since last month as I yelled at a person over frustration with a topic.

The only times I've felt ignored by admins in games is when players are clearly breaking the rules when messing with security players, I adminhelp it, I see a admin respond and the people breaking the rules keep doing the same thing round after round. Can you blame me for feeling ignored? After that experience I lost some faith in adminhelping and stopped playing the game till recently. EDIT: Does not help that I feel I have to adminhelp before killing shit players. I agree with alot of people that security should have more leeway with lethal force.

I'm thankful for your post Mordent and it has some good advice that I agree with and plan to follow. A break from the fourms is needed, I agree. I only made this thread after a talk with Wonk and mainly wanted to hear from the community if I am as awful as I am told I am. Once this thread runs it's course I plan to not post for four to six months or posting very rarely.

[babayetu83]

i don't think you should leave ed but you seem quick to succumb to frustration.

keep a cool head, people aren't here to piss you off or annoy you, and you sound like you could use a paradigm shift

my genuine heartfelt advice to you would be

1) kill people with kindness and politeness
2) focus on the positive side of a situation
3) positivity spreads
4) if you are criticizing something think of how to improve it, be politely brutally honest, go into detail, do not allow fallacious thinking to take root in your mind
5) make sure you don't miss anything when doing this, too often do i overlook things and have to go back and rethink things

[Vitatroll]

I'm'a avoid the long ass posts (pot and kettle, I know) and stick to the OP.

In short, I like having you around. A lot, really. Not sure what set this off, but don't be caring too much about harsh words on the internet. Same with life. Bumping heads is okay and a land where everyone sits around reciting the same opinions is not only a dead end, but also boring as hell.

[Ed Venture]

but don't be caring too much about harsh words on the internet. Same with life.

Things would be so much better if people lived by this.

What set this off was in 2014 I joined the IRC a decision I regret greatly, but one made cause I wanted to talk with admins and coders as at the time they rarely posted on here. I gave negative feedback alot and I got told I am super rude for doing that/how I did it. Tried to improve my attitude for years to fit in there and either no one noticed or refused to noticed and treated me the same. I left IRC shortly after that for various reasons I won't get into here but the stigma that I was nothing but a ungrateful asshole towards the coders always stayed around me. Which I heavily disagree with. Got to the point one admin recently told me to leave goonstation and I was threaten with a ban from another. So like I said I decided to ask the community cause if I am as awful as some of them say I am, then the community must feel the same way at least to some extent. If I am as rude as I am told I am by them then there would be no way for all of you not to noticed. So if I am truly this unpleasant to have around I'll just leave. So far a few people don't want me to go. This is not said to ignore what has been said in this thread as I know I have issues communicating here and it's something I'm still working on, but I feel my overall attitude has changed for the better since 2014.

It's at the point I am afraid that I will get banned for any feedback that is negative. That's how confused this ordeal has made me.

I also get told that no improvement has been made but no one provides proof despite the burden of proof being on them. I don't even get any examples that's just how it is I guess. If I am to be banned I want it to be because of facts and not feelings. I honestly feel I made some good improvements all of which have been ignored by most.

I do feel I share most of the blame for this treatment but I do feel it's unfair that no matter what I do nothing has changed.

---

The Criticisms from amaranthineApocalypse and babayetu83 I do agree with and will be reflecting on them.

[Wisecrack34]

I'm pretty much a newbie here, only been playing since September so I wouldn't know much about your history but from what i've seen you're a pretty decent guy, just a tad harsh on a lot of the forum posts. Worst case scenario, you killed 3 babies with a rusty water pipe, i'd say you taking a short break from the forums would be ok but I've honestly never had any trouble with you in game EVER. Id say you're a pretty valuable member of the community and would hate to see you leave.

[Frank_Stein]

Eh, I think you have tendencies to over dramatize things and write extensive hand wringing posts. We all have things we're passionate about, but somethings you just need to step back from and know when to leave it alone.

I think you and I have drastically different opinions and ideas about what the role of Security is ingame and what their code of conduct should be. I can respect that you do know the role well and have interesting suggestions about it, and appreciate you as the bad cop to my good cop dynamic.

Ultimately I like having you around, but have experienced the same annoyances some people have had. I can understand the extra stress that must being staff would add to that dynamic. 

I guess all I gotta say is people tend to judge others by their actions and themselves by their intent. Keep that in mind

[Ed Venture]

On our different views on Security. I simply believe if you are within the rules and do the job the role asks of you then you can play any role the way you want. Goon has always been about freedom of choice when it comes to the gameplay and I play with that in mind. Because of this I think self imposed rules or things such as space law to be redundant. But others like doing that and enjoy space law so there's no harm in it really.

I've never over dramatized my experiences last year as security even if you disagree with what was said. I have to say even if it turned out badly for me I felt quite vindicated when others started reporting the same issues I talked about back then at the start of 2018.

[kremlin]

i don't know you very well but through your opinions on some of the code changes. i think you would do a lot better if you were to just outright state what you want instead of verbosely implying it through so many words -- this tends to have the (intentional or not) side effect of making you sound snarky.

e.g.

"i am very sick and tired of the people thatdo X, it would be so much better if those just did Y"
vs.
"i prefer X"

your audience is inversely proportional to the amount of text published.


--
i think you are a good player and should not leave goon's station. you should meditate on some of your past exchanges and identify the patterns of thinking and behaviors that led to good outcomes, and replicate them

[Cyfarfod]

I mean we had a pretty good fight at one point but finally talked it out like grownups, I dunno man seems like if yer capable of doing that (which you proved to me obviously) there's no reason to LEAVE.

[Ed Venture]

Okay so what I need to do is the following.

1: Keep it short and get to the point
2: Don't collect my thoughts in one sitting.
3:Play the game more and spend less time on the forums
4:Take a break from the forums for a few months
5:Remain positive even in the most frustrating situations

I think that's the important things covered. With that I think this thread is over. Thank you all for taking the time to let me know I am still welcome here and what I really need to work on. I'll only post on the forums for HoS threads but other then that I am gonna try and stay off for four to six months.

[Readster]

It's really unfortunate that we closed the "Lie about leaving the community" thread like literally a week ago.

[Wisecrack34]

It's really unfortunate that we closed the "Lie about leaving the community" thread like literally a week ago.

Huzzah the thread is dead, no more depressing space men! Now when someone leaves we can just assume they swapped servers or play at different times than you ;-;