Inter-Departmental Cooperation (co-op)

[Cyfarfod]

Hey!  Anyone have any good ideas on how to promote interaction between various jobs?  Especially mechanically.  More socially inclined people will just go and do it for whatever reason they wanna make, but are there are systems or tweaks we could come up with to promote/require science working with engineers, or doctors working with miners (or, fuck, botanists, or whoever else) for example?

Miner is a pretty scarce job, for example, it seems like.  Same thing for engineers.  I play CE what I feel like is A LOT, and a lot of the time it's because I can assume the engine just isn't gonna get started otherwise... but once you've started the engine, WHAT DO NOW?!?  If you're not CE with mining access, your only REAL freeform task is building something, somewhere.  Could that be improved?

Mining is a little tedious but also has some cool discovery elements, what with the nano fabricator.  However, it seems like any time I get minerals and gems that'd be useful to anyone- looking at you, robotics, QM- those jobs aren't filled.  It hurts!

Robotics is another job that is either we have one because we've got a dedicated robotics player on, or there is no roboticist tonight.  Is there anything that could be done to make the job more useful to the ship, and therefore (hopefully) more attractive?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I guess to finish- is this a good goal? Is this a bad goal?

EDIT2: Some basic current topics/issues-

*Cooperation should be fostered in the interests of pursuing specialized/powerful/useful late-game gear.
-my note: it's OK if this means it doesn't happen EVERY round, we don't need this EVERY round

*A potential problem is that departments are either solely suppliers, solely demanders, or have absolutely no reason to share because it's all internally consistent.

*How do we feel about potentially making resources persist between multiple rounds, to encourage people to do "harvesting" type jobs?

*Could giving roboticists the ability to make robots that help reduce the repetitive-type jobs of some other departments make roboticist a more appealing job?

*How should MONEY work? Is it important to this discussion?

*What would a good "logistical chain" looks like? In terms of departments, is x+y = producing a thing better, or is x->y->z->etc. superior?

*Would something as simple as adding specific ways to list needs/wants between departments, in a way more noticeable than radio, and not dependent on the bomb-able PDAs, be enough? Would it be BETTER to use a PDA program, so it is portable and always on you?

[Superlagg]

For resource-making roles: Cross-round resource caches. Somewhere to drop off a bunch of materials, plants, and certain chemicals to be stored for use in later rounds. Deposit a bunch of stuff one round, then withdraw it later when you'll actually need it.

This would help the dynamic between the roles that specialize in making things and the roles that benefit from the things they make by allowing both to work asynchronously. Both won't need to be active at the same time for either to get what they want out of the role.

Miners would be able to mine all they like without feeling like most of their haul's going to waste, and the people who want to play with their minerals would be able to do so whether they're there at the time or not. However, if Mining hasn't been doing their job lately, anyone who relies on them would be more rightfully impacted.

Manufacturers could be tied into the mineral storage, too. Each one able to draw from (a certain amount of) the stashed resources, with certain ones drawing higher-level resources than ones you'd find in shallow maintenance.

I personally would feel more inclined to do these jobs (as opposed to running around being a jackass) if I felt like I was contributing to other people in a somewhat reliable way. I'd probably actually grow some veggies if I knew that there was some chance in the future the Chef would use them, as opposed to waiting for orders or making shitloads in the blind faith that the Chef is both there and willing/able/not dead enough to cook.

That, and the stock levels could give newer or unsure players an idea of what to do next. If you're a Chemist and you see that the Salbutamol levels are low, you might get the idea to start making some Salbutamol that round. Loads of Cerenkite might convince you to make some batteries or radioactive leisurewear.

Of course, there should be some limits. Wouldn't be fair if Mining filled up the Nanosilo in one round of turbonerdery and made the department pointless for the next few rounds.

Perhaps the stocks decay a bit every round, or production produces less products. Maybe it costs something to bank a resource, getting more expensive for interesting things and/or as stocks rise. Could have a cap for each of the resources stored. Or just have traitors and spies steal it as part of their objectives.

One thought is how resources with qualities and unique stuff tied to them would work in storage. While 500 units of Mauxite wouldn't (necessarily) be a problem, 500 great/shoddy/award-winning watermelons, each containing 2-300 units of water, plasma, and/or pepperoni certainly would. Good luck handling that in a sane manner that still rewards Botanists for making fun stuff.

Another is deciding how and who gets to withdraw this stuff. Lock it behind too much paperwork and it'll turn into a pain in the ass to use. Make it too public and the Clown'll drain the tank and take a bath in all the station's lettuce. (Then again, you could just beat up the Clown and grind out more resources!)

This is assuming any of this is in any way possible. Regardless, it's just ol' Laggykins daydreaming about persistent bullshit. Just a thought.

[Cyfarfod]

For resource-making roles: Cross-round resource caches. Somewhere to drop off a bunch of materials, plants, and certain chemicals to be stored for use in later rounds. Deposit a bunch of stuff one round, then withdraw it later when you'll actually need it.

Miners would be able to have fun doing their job, and people who want to play with their minerals would be able to do so whether they're there at the time or not; though if Mining hasn't been doing their job lately, anyone who relies on them would be more rightfully impacted.

Miners could mine a buttload of stuff and stash it in a permanent storage for later rounds to use. QM could sell some for cash, metallurgists could play with it for murder/science, traitors could steal from it for objectives, lotsa fun stuff. Maybe have a cap on how much is in there, or make it drain a bit every round so miners are still useful after a previous round's massive haul.

YES! It should deplete at some sort of rate, whether it's half-per-round-end, or 25% or -10 blocks or whatever.

[Frank_Stein]

The way I see cross department cooperation going is when both parties have something to gain from the deal.

Mining supplies Robotics with needed ores, and research with new artifacts, but neither departments have much to offer mining.

So why not make it where Robotics can build new mining robots? How about science making mining tools from artifact research? It's gotta be a mutually beneficial system.

---

A note about robotics. I really wanna see them create some kind of job automation that does the busy work for other departments. Like robots that monitor and water botany's plants for them, or adjust the engine pressure levels as needed and repair burst pipes to keep engineers safe.

Considering the complexity of some of the stuff you can build in mechanics, being able to write custom code for robots that they'd follow out could be the way to go about this.

[medsal15]

So, the goal is now to make jobs help each other, right?

My main concern would be, how do you make it good without making it a god damn 5D web?

[Cyfarfod]

So, the goal is now to make jobs help each other, right?

My main concern would be, how do you make it good without making it a god damn 5D web?

I dunno, is it? Obviously I'm STARTING from the opinion that giving people a reason to work with other departments is a good thing. Am I right? Who knows?

[Sundance]

Was going to make an effortpost but instead here's some bulletpoints. Note almost all of these idea's are half in the game, just not finished:

- Money would need to be effectively managed. No more raiding of budgets.
- Following on from that, there are now more things to buy. There needs to be motivation to do so.
- Botany can help medical and QM, QM needs more stuff to give to botany, synth organ stuff needs to have positive effects so that doctors can help Botany.
- Botany can also help mining, through the materials system. Together they could craft something very cool. Good fucking luck touching that monstrosity.
- Botany can help the chef. Food or a faux hunger bonus system as suggested countless times before would mean that the chef can make good shit from botany's stuff, botanists getting the first pickings.
- Chef can help chemistry by supplying them with various cooked foods to get special chems. Chem can supply the chef with chems.
- Chemistry can help medical with helpful chems, but firstly the overabundance and perhaps overeffectiveness of medical chems ready at hand would need to be looked at. Not sure how medical can help chemistry, perhaps something pathology related.
- Robotics can effectively help everyone with the use of automated bots. They're rather robust in those terms. Mining is the main helper of Robotics, I feel telesci and artifact research could also go a long way.

Things I'm not sure of:
- Who the heck helps engineering/mechanics. They're really in their own kind of bubble.
- Also security. I feel they benefit naturally from a good working environment, many security I notice are benefactors from QM/robotics/research.

[Frank_Stein]

We could potentially make it so engineers can get better gas mixes for the engine from the Research Toxins lab.

Problem is they are pretty darn efficient at getting hell burns going with what they have already. Maybe you can tweak some gas properties, introduce some research only ones, or take out the engineering mixing room.

But all of that feels more like forcing co-op than encouraging mutual benefit

though, I guess Science needs engineering to get high power levels to reliably use the teleporter, so there's that?

[Cyfarfod]

We could potentially make it so engineers can get better gas mixes for the engine from the Research Toxins lab.

Problem is they are pretty darn efficient at getting hell burns going with what they have already. Maybe you can tweak some gas properties, introduce some research only ones, or take out the engineering mixing room.

But all of that feels more like forcing co-op than encouraging mutual benefit

though, I guess Science needs engineering to get high power levels to reliably use the teleporter, so there's that?

When I first started learning how to engine, I was convinced there would be some use for cryostylene. Any time I got engineer, I'd ask science for some. Any time I got science, I'd offer some to the engineering team.

I was wrong. But I think super-cooling, fire-generating and heating chems should have a place in the engine, personally.

[ferriswheel1]

Cross-department cooperation, to be successful, has to have a mutual benefit. It also shouldn't be, as Sundance said in that other thread, necessary for basic-level stuff. Co-op has to be for high level gear or interesting things, and shouldn't be required to do a job. 

With that in mind, here's more bullet points detailing the current problems with cooperation by department:

• -QM's cooperative ability is severely limited by only being able to order very basic tools and materials, as well as a bunch of gimmicky stuff. Their transport systems are unreliable and slow as well.  The cargo bay needs to be able to order higher-level stuff that departments actually need to have a proper use. 
  
• -Mining are their own biggest customers for using ore, and have no incentive to send any of their materials the crew's way. Why send resources to others when you need them to build a spacesuit? The materials system can't produce anything useful outside of gimmicky crap and weapons, so why would they bother sending materials for public use?
  
• -Robotics sits upon a huge stack of basic materials, and only needs advanced materials for a few rare borg upgrades and eyeball augmentations. They will also occasionally grab medicine from medbay for surgery. 
  The roboticists have many opportunities for people to give them stuff, but their inability to give anything back means this rarely occurs. Giving robotics the ability to build robots/drones/humongous fancy mecha for the other departments would aid cooperation.   
  
• -Science can activate discovered artifacts in the artlab. Unfortunately, the mysteries of DWAINE and their inability to give anything in return mean that it's unlikely anything will be sent there, despite both the miners and QM being able to order artifacts. The random nature of artifacts also means that it's likely that sending artifacts to be activated will result in a large explosion, continuous annoying loud noises or both. 
  
• -Botany can produce a large amount of useful medical chemicals but, excepting omnizine, there's nothing they can produce that isn't already in massive over supply in medical. Sending plants to be sold at QM happens very rarely as well, as they're unlikely to receive any cut of the profits.  
  
•  -Medical has a colossal amount of medicines both basic and advanced, and rarely needs extra even in the face of massive usage. Pathology can in theory produce beneficial viruses but rarely does due to it's complex and long winded nature.   
  

As you can see, current departmental cooperation is hampered by the fact that most departments are either "givers" or "takers". The "givers" have large amounts of stuff to give out, but won't as they don't receive anything in return. The "takers" have lots of things they can create or do with outside help, but lack anything to provide in return for the help.  Making cooperation easier means giving the "takers" stuff to provide to the "givers" in return for their help.

[Cyfarfod]

*IF* these were the only two choices, would people prefer-

Robotics can make cool synthetic limbs/eyeballs/implants/STUFF that aids in specific jobs (radiation resistance implant? eyeball implant that replaces goggles? robot limb that holds a shitload of water and lets you skip carrying a watering can? assume this also means automated bots to do specific things, like watering plants or collecting ore and dropping it in the nani-crucible.)

OR

Scientists/mechanics/engineers/someone make components that the roboticist then assembles into the finished product which is then given to the people that need it?

How BIG do we want the supply chain to be?

[ferriswheel1]

*IF* these were the only two choices, would people prefer-

Robotics can make cool synthetic limbs/eyeballs/implants/STUFF that aids in specific jobs (radiation resistance implant?  eyeball implant that replaces goggles?  robot limb that holds a shitload of water and lets you skip carrying a watering can?  assume this also means automated  bots to do specific things, like watering plants or collecting ore and dropping it in the nani-crucible.)

OR

Scientists/mechanics/engineers/someone make components that the roboticist then assembles into the finished product which is then given to the people that need it?

How BIG do we want the supply chain to be?

I'd go with more implants, cooperation doesn't necessarily mean that you have a massive supply chain. Robotics could use more varied implants, especially ones useful to miners and QM's. Some useful implants for miners could be:

• Plasma cutter eye implants 
  
• Drill arm replacement
  
• Automatic mining scanner/meson eye implants.
  
• Implanted jet pack/jet boots
  
• Oxygen recycler implant
  
• Ore scoop/satchel arm replacement
  

• Hydraulic Crate-lifting claw arm replacement 
  

[Technature]

- Who the heck helps engineering/mechanics. They're really in their own kind of bubble.

Miners can supply mechanics with materials so they can build or replace more things as the station demands it.

Science can help engineering for when engineers inevitably run out of shit to burn creating really good combustion chamber tanks.

I mean, in theory, I'm not implying this actually happens on a normal basis.

[Cyfarfod]

- Who the heck helps engineering/mechanics. They're really in their own kind of bubble.

Miners can supply mechanics with materials so they can build or replace more things as the station demands it.

Science can help engineering for when engineers inevitably run out of shit to burn creating really good combustion chamber tanks.

I mean, in theory, I'm not implying this actually happens on a normal basis.

Specifically about the toxins research-

I feel I've got a good grasp on engine burns. Other than being able to make combustion fuel mixes with slightly more gas in it... do you think there's any thing else toxins can really offer engineering? I always regarded as toxins being a misnomer, and it's REALLY just the bomb-making lab.

[Technature]

- Who the heck helps engineering/mechanics. They're really in their own kind of bubble.

Miners can supply mechanics with materials so they can build or replace more things as the station demands it.

Science can help engineering for when engineers inevitably run out of shit to burn creating really good combustion chamber tanks.

I mean, in theory, I'm not implying this actually happens on a normal basis.

Specifically about the toxins research-

I feel I've got a good grasp on engine burns.  Other than being able to make combustion fuel mixes with slightly more gas in it... do you think there's any thing else toxins can really offer engineering?  I always regarded as toxins being a misnomer, and it's REALLY just the bomb-making lab.

Well once you know HOW to make the best hellburns, the main thing science is good for in engineering is supply.
Not like those lazy fucks are using it anyway.