Detective BloodTrak Tracking Device!

[Crystalwarrior]

Same can be said about any fucking job ever, Superlagg. Security, Engineer, Medical Doctor, Captain, what-have-you - with that cynical mindset and a "let's not bother fixing it" attitude helps nobody in the long run.

Also, literally any fucking one can set up a chair seance or an ouja board listening - doesn't mean that happens often, doesn't mean people actually care, know, or use those methods, and if they do, there's a lot of parallel noise from other ghosts.

Detective as he is right now has nothing unique about his job - the only thing unique is a fancy stun revolver. Reason why he's in "a quantum state between antagonist, mindslave, or valid-seeking jackass" is precisely because his job and purpose is, personally, horribly mismanaged and can definitely be fixed with discussion and cooperation rather than instant dismissal.

You, yourself, admit that the job is not being taken seriously - so why not do something about it?

[Sundance]

Crsytalwarrior, although I disagree strongly with Superlaggs stance on det's and crime solving via seance , I also think he was highlighting the unnecessary chemical addition to the suggested device.
Slightly off topic; but there's a wierd agenda going on with interdepartmental co-operation, for which I'll call co-op for short because fuck typing.

I find there is a serious lack of co-op on the station, but that's mainly due to the lack of high-end rewards, so there's no incentive for botany to work with the chef or medical, or engineering to work with mechanics, or QM to work with mining, as the high-end rewards are reliably achieved by yourself and yourself alone.
I hate this, and I wish we had steered a more co-op direction because it enriches gameplay and interaction. I'm fairly oldhat, so I can safely say I'd see this implemented at the heat death of the universe.

On topic: The wrong way of going about co-op is to rely on other departments to get basic functionality for your job. That's fucking stupid, it should only be for high-end stuff, see above. The suggestion for the device, which coupled with the balances that Ferriswheel pointed out and what I suggested is already fairly balanced.

[Crystalwarrior]

Suppose I should get on with it and make a patch then!

[Roomba]

Same can be said about any fucking job ever, Superlagg. Security, Engineer, Medical Doctor, Captain, what-have-you - with that cynical mindset and a "let's not bother fixing it" attitude helps nobody in the long run.

Also, literally any fucking one can set up a chair seance or an ouja board listening - doesn't mean that happens often, doesn't mean people actually care, know, or use those methods, and if they do, there's a lot of parallel noise from other ghosts.

Detective as he is right now has nothing unique about his job - the only thing unique is a fancy stun revolver. Reason why he's in "a quantum state between antagonist, mindslave, or valid-seeking jackass" is precisely because his job and purpose is, personally, horribly mismanaged and can definitely be fixed with discussion and cooperation rather than instant dismissal.

You, yourself, admit that the job is not being taken seriously - so why not do something about it?

I'd disagree with that. The detective does occupy a unique role - the problem is that no one knows exactly what the boundaries and parameters of that unique role are.

Is the detective sec, or is it not? If an assistant is breaking into genetics for the third time, is it within his job scope to strip-search and bring him, or should he abstain from getting involved? If you find the guy who mugged the HOP for all-access earlier, are you required to phone in sec for the actual arrest or can you just gun him down right then and there? It's not something I think there's a right answer to, and it's certainly something that could be worked out between sec and the detective on a round to round basis, but often one or the other sides of that equation is missing or not on speaking terms, so the detective just plays it by ear. This leads to getting yelled at when taking any action for doing too little or too much, which in turn leads to the detective just ignoring any criticism and doing their own thing. Which in turn generates antipathy towards the general concept of the detective, and so on and so forth.

I don't really think most of the recent 'fix det' proposals (which have generally been along the lines of 'more stuff to track/more fancy toys to track with') actually address this core issue. The issue isn't really that tracking suspects is currently an unengaging affair, it's what happens once you've found them. You could go 'well, now it's clear to all that the detective's role is just sec support and forensics', but the detective might counter with 'But I'm way more efficient than sec, and I can get the target in my sights before they do, and I have this fancy gun with lethal bullets right here...' Remember that the more efficient tracking tools you give the detective, the less time he has to spend actually tracking people down.

(To say nothing of the 'give det better gun/more guns' proposal, because oh boy is that a gargantuan can of worms right there)

Also, no offense, but ending the argument with 'well, I'm now coding this as it stands, your input is no longer needed or wanted because I'm coding this and you're not' is, while true, not really something that endears you to people. I'd rather have stuff hashed out properly here than rushing ahead, cause that just leads to dueling patches and github drama like that which has crippled so many other SS13 servers. I'm not even against it's current implementation in its current form, just making an observation.

[Sundance]

Your cynicism is coming out of the wazoo there Roomba, and is poorly directed.

Are we seriously arguing here that more fun tools to play with is a bad thing? Honestly only this forum could imply more things is bad (that isn't aesthetic and actually functioning, we have a plethora of the former).

What you are suggesting is something no coder can fix, and that's the culture around the detective.
How about we code something that anytime the detective shoots lethals at the clown, we send a 50,000 Volts down the internet and directly into the players crotch to discourage them for misbehaving? Oh wait..

We can't fix that, so don't even try. Security (including the detective) lack any means to incentivize them to do their job properly. It's all under their own volition. I've seen players, mentors even, spawn as security and immedietely piss off to the bar. Like seriously, nice gimmick, but don't tell me you didn't join security so you could be a staff assitant with guns.

So how the heck do we encourage those who wish to play to do it properly? I can't think of any other way than to give them to tools to do so. Expansion on forensics and methods of tracking and spying is key.

There's always always always going to be the douche who spawns as detective, sees all his forensic stuff on his table and goes "Nah" and just picks up his .32 and then tries weasel his way into security for a taser so he can be Sec 2.0
We shouldn't not code something just because those players exist. We should accomodate players who actually want to do forensics.

[Crystalwarrior]

You, yourself, admit that the job is not being taken seriously - so why not do something about it?

Also, no offense, but ending the argument with 'well, I'm now coding this as it stands, your input is no longer needed or wanted because I'm coding this and you're not' is, while true, not really something that endears you to people. I'd rather have stuff hashed out properly here than rushing ahead, cause that just leads to dueling patches and github drama like that which has crippled so many other SS13 servers. I'm not even against it's current implementation in its current form, just making an observation.

Sorry, wasn't my intention - by "do something about it" I didn't precisely mean the blanket "go code it yourself" anti-cricisim shield bullshit, I was more referring to talking and discussing the issue.

That being said, I really appreciate your post and you do bring up some valid concerns and criticisms of the job itself - personally, I believe detective is a support role and, while sometimes more efficient than sec, detective still lacks the manpower and exists as a "loose cannon" - he is, by design, a less trustworthy sec officer with more tracking tools and less responsibilities, and I think it's okay as it has the potential to bring out a more interesting dynamic in security affairs.

In changeling rounds for example, a good detective can track down a changeling and (temporarily) save the crew from a disaster - if he doesn't run off to do that on his own and get absorbed, that is. Detective's biggest dilemma is trust - if your fellow sec officers don't trust you, you're off on your own.

[Superlagg]

Suppose I should get on with it and make a patch then!

Go for it! I might not've been clear in my argument, the point was that since there are already ways to cooperate with ghosts to find corpses and badguys, and with how much it sucks to have no hope of getting back into the round after some jackass stuffs your body into a closet, this tool would be a great addition, and that it shouldn't require non-sec requirements to be used. If anything, it should be more powerful in locating who bled all over the floor.

And that Detectives highlight why Sec was made to never be antagonists. Not that I mind the Detective having a shady, might-be-criminal aura about it. Something to make them more directly helpful in ways other than use-forensic-scanner-catch-badguy.

And to add to the off-topic co-op thing, some of it might stem from the fact that the chaotic nature of the round's length. Could be anywhere from 30 minutes up to 70; do you invest half a round for something awesome that might get cancelled when some jackass forces a shuttle call, or do you pop out something quicker with no risk of getting shuttlefucked?

That, and it's all memories the moment the round ends. Might put off some folk from doing it more than a few times.

[Roomba]

To clarify my stance, I'm not 100% against all the fancy new detective toys/systems being proposed, I just feel like they're circling around (what I see as) the main issue with detectives, and won't really make much of a difference with regard to that. But I could certainly be off-base on this, it's happened before.

[Cyfarfod]

Hey, if someone is going to take the work to code it, they don't HAVE to listen to anyone's input. Our contribution should be viewed as an attempt to make it more like TO GET PATCHED. I think this is an overall good idea! I also think it could invalidate other detective equipment! That's the only issue I was trying to brainstorm resolution on.

[NateTheSquid]

why is everyone fighting about this. chill

[Cyfarfod]

why is everyone fighting about this. chill

I *THINK* this is already in the process of blowing over.

[ferriswheel1]

I don't think this would invalidate the detective's other equipment in the slightest. Using it to find the perpetrator would probably be rare, as I said, even the least-stealthy murderer is unlikely to leave their own blood at a crime scene.  It's more or less a tool that allows the detective to better search for corpses, with the addition that it can be used once in a blue moon to actively stalk clumsier murderers. 

If anything, blood tracking would let forensics tools be used more, as you're better able to find hidden corpses to get sleuthing on.

Roomba, it might be an idea to make a dedicated thread about the role of the detective if you feel strongly about the role. I generally see the detective as the guy in sec who handles the bigger picture. Whilst the security officers are off patrolling or chasing down hooligans, the detective's pursuing the bigger cases and putting the pieces together. Security officers may have to run off any second to run down an assistant, but a detective has the time to follow up on leads and puzzle things out.

[Dr Zoidcrab]

I think a better implementation would be to scan a blood sample, and then the pinpointer would point to anyone within visible distance who has that blood on their clothes or hands.

[Frank_Stein]

I think a better implementation would be to scan a blood sample, and then the pinpointer would point to anyone within visible distance who has that blood on their clothes or hands.

Actually, yeah. Something that just highlights a sample you give it would be a better tool

Maybe even include fingerprints or glove fibers. Then it's more about tracking them based on following the path of items they've interacted with.

Though I guess that doesn't do anything for helping find dead bodies

[Dr Zoidcrab]

I think a better implementation would be to scan a blood sample, and then the pinpointer would point to anyone within visible distance who has that blood on their clothes or hands.

Actually, yeah. Something that just highlights a sample you give it would be a better tool

Maybe even include fingerprints or glove fibers. Then it's more about tracking them based on following the path of items they've interacted with.

Though I guess that doesn't do anything for helping find dead bodies

Bodies are generally found covered in their own blood, so it could still be useful for that.