Borgs and jobs

[Noah Buttes]

Fellow players i noticed that MOST OF YOU DID NOT READ MY SUGGESTION AT ALL, i strongly reccomend reading it and commenting on that instead of replying to other peoples posts who probably didnt even skimm my post at all! i already explained how to balance it, and also i think borgs should have an option (set by roboticist) to be free , or AI independant but still follow the laws to prevent for example antag hijackin the AI (or rogue AI) and then via AI (or AI itself) taking control ower other borgs! Also borgs should be able to do the roboticists job (in case of him/her being dead or somethin).

I am not going to repeat myself every page or two just cause you guys are LAZY TO READ THE FIRST POST! Please do instead of semi-derailing the topic.

I honestly didn't see any of that in your first post.

I'm actually not sure what you were originally trying to suggest besides secborgs and borgs with hands.

[misto]

he also said light frame borgs could be the only ones with hands. which i guess is not too bad since they die even to taser shots sometimes

[Cirrial]

Borgs should absolutely never ever have the chance to START free, unless free borgs are subject to the same restrictions as human players regarding the rules, which coupled with hands just seems like you're making borgs exactly like human crew but better in every way.

Some restrictions are in place for sensible reasons. The only restriction I don't understand is the smaller cell for round start borgs.

[Vitatroll]

Our fellow humans that suffered major body damage and couldnt be cloned, or a violent antag that got borged as an alternative to being spaced, doesnt matter... these machines are too specialized, but well equipped, durable (if reinforced and shielded), and under strict AI laws (unless someone tinkers with their brains).

"well equipped, durable (if reinforced and shielded), and..."

Borgs can self-upgrade last time I checked...-snip-

You gotta remember how strong they are. All access, immune to cold, immune to poison, practically immune to fire, no slips or falls, tougher than humans, can be faster too, practically endless usage of some tools like the RCD, and the list goes on -- not even counting the upgrades like shield or teleport. Borgs are strong. Very. I've seen skilled borg players solo the station with little effort in record times. This is why we have to be careful here.

I'm not an avid borg player, I admit. I need someone to give me an instance where a borg died to human actions that wouldn't have killed a human anyways. I admit I'm not an avid silicon player, but I can say getting tased or shot with lasers or stunned and beat in the head with a fire extinguisher is a guaranteed death for most. You don't even have to worry about being choked as a borg.

They are far better than humans and this is why they are on rails.

This is all nice as is really  however i would like to see at least light bodies being able to use their hands properly  (so basically they become machine people, or fully cybernetic humans). This way we can have Cyborgs that can actually do a job on their own completely (like surgeons doing transplants for example) and they trade off good armor for being able to use their hands! (maybe even their modules that grant them all the equipment).

"so basically they become machine people, or fully cybernetic humans"

That completely undermines the point of borgs. Even if the system changes they should never approach being human, else we might as well ditch borgs all together.

"This way we can have Cyborgs that can actually do a job on their own completely (like surgeons doing transplants for example)"

If we had more people active on the server I'd be against borgs being able to do everything their 'job' entails, as it makes human players inferior, but I'm for it as we are right now. Still, no borgs holding things without a massive change to the system.

"and they trade off good armor for being able to use their hands! (maybe even their modules that grant them all the equipment)."

Take away a light borg's modules and upgrades so they can use their hands? Again, no. It would require changing the entire borg system. Just think about it. It would give rise to double-taser borgs. Euuck. I think it takes 50 damage to crush light cyborg head, but that matters little when they can just go grab some wire and a welder. Again, euuck. Let's not forget the lovable TTV making borg of Great Justice. Yay!

Another thing would be nice if they could be security! To be actually able to catch criminals... integrated tazers and cuffs (but lethal lazers would need to be separatelly added by roboticist, with permission from HoS) with AI and HoS, HoP and Captain holding the kill switch in case somethin goes wrong...

You need to play more rounds on this server if you think any of this is good. Actually, allowing roboticists to give borgs lasers, even with 'permission', is probably the worst idea I've ever seen on this forum. I actually can't think of a worse idea at this moment.

Or other proffessions like science... wery useful there as they need not fret explosions or radiation as much as humans do! And who cares about toxins and freezing temperatures... unless the floor is melting no need to worry... just watch out for that EMP!

I don't think there's anything a borg can't do in science outside of bomb making. In fact, I'm pretty sure a chem borg can do all these things better. Tip: Going to icemoon while unrobust or have a bad connection? Bring an engineering borg and have it solo everything in the tunnels. Honk.

Fellow players i noticed that MOST OF YOU DID NOT READ MY SUGGESTION AT ALL, i strongly reccomend reading it and commenting on that instead of replying to other peoples posts who probably didnt even skimm my post at all!

I did read it, though I admit to ignoring most of it. Mainly anything after the suggestion of secborgs with integrated tasers and possible lasers. Most of us agree that we'd like it if borgs were given more agency, but many of us deemed your ideas as unworkable (on this server) so we tried to expand on them to make the spirit of your idea work.

i already explained how to balance it

Not really. You basically just said you wanted borgs to be more human, and in order to balance this they should be more human. They would basically be superior humans with the downside of No Backpack. The Three Laws? No regular on the station expect a borg to follow every voice command of every asshat staff assistant that thinks it'd be funny to have a borg communicate in nothing but Barks. Borgs under vanilla laws are, in reality, just limited to roughly the same laws non-antag humans are. The only exceptions being no human harm whatsoever. Borgs don't get to be vigilantes? Poor things.

and also i think borgs should have an option (set by roboticist) to be free , or AI independant but still follow the laws to prevent for example antag hijackin the AI (or rogue AI) and then via AI (or AI itself) taking control ower other borgs!

By 'free' I assume you mean 'independent of the AI network' or 'runs on own lawset' and not 'free will', because nobody who's seen free will AI would ever suggest that.

"and also i think borgs should have an option (set by roboticist) to be free , or AI independant but still follow the laws"

Hmm. That's not actually a bad idea. I don't think it'd be a popular idea, but I don't dislike it. Cog2's upload is terribly easy to get into. Making just the AI your pal already gives huge benefits. It would also force more intrigue into killswitching borgs instead of 'Beta-409 hit me with a cardboard tube so I killswitched em before it got bad'. The main problem would be that it shuts down station-wide silicon gimmick laws of which 1 in 50 are actually entertaining.

"to prevent for example antag hijackin the AI (or rogue AI) and then via AI (or AI itself) taking control ower other borgs!"

I have no idea what that was supposed to mean. I assume it's basically the same as the above line, so I'll skip it.

Also borgs should be able to do the roboticists job (in case of him/her being dead or somethin).

On the fence about that. It could be helpful sometimes, but I see it's major use being the propagation of rogue borgs under the current system.

I am not going to repeat myself every page or two just cause you guys are LAZY TO READ THE FIRST POST! Please do instead of semi-derailing the topic.

More or less all of the ideas put forth follow the spirit of your initial concepts. I really hate point-for-point posts like this, but it sounds like that's what you wanted -- so here you go. I agree with you that borgs need be given more agency, I just completely disagree with how you wanted to go about it.

[misto]

so, gooder starting battery and more things being possible via click-dragging (putting bodies into gene scanner, reclaimer, limb attachment), seems to be what most admit would be ok minor buffs to borgs

im glad you think that vuk's suggestion to be able to have borgs operate on lawsets isolated from the ai cores laws is also intriguing, vitatroll

[Vuk Farkas]

well people obviously have a lot of thoughts about borgs, including you, so this thread kind of transformed into a general borg chat thread.

we mostly agree with you that borgs would strongly benefit from improved functionality rather than needing humans to handhold them thru certain specific tasks

being able to clickdrag power cells, wires, and brains into the correct parts and then clickdrag the parts onto a borg frame would let borgs build more borgs and do the roboticists job, and it would be great and useful, especially if medbay has been damaged and vacuumed and genetics is gone, but people naturally worry that this would enable an unstoppable rogue borg cascade

being able to switch borgs to operate independently of ai laws is intriguing, and could help make them less susceptible to simple "you all kill yourselves now" laws, or "you all go berserk and murder all the rest of the crew now" laws.

this could be really, really funny if those random electric storm events gave the ai and independent borgs different random new laws.

being able to switch a borg to free will is troubling. granting free will is essentially what antag emags already do, and that almost always results in killings. i do not recommend it as a default feature.

perhaps it could be changed such that antag emagging functions more like mindslaving than merely clearing out all laws permanently. the emag-mindslaving could even have a chance to wear off eventually like regular mindslaving does. roboticists, security and command staff's ids should be able to reboot a borg's laws to default 3, if theyre in independent mode, and ai reset module should reboot them to default 3 if theyre in centralized mode. this way both independent and centralized mode has ups and downs. independent is less susceptible to instant mass control but then you cant mass reset 'em. this has potential.

i feel that if we made an effort to remind people ingame that flashes are a great, cheap and plentiful way to stun rogue borgs for killing, the fear of them would decrease. QM makes a great anti-rogue-borg base. hack the robotics manufacturer in qm and gear up with borg stunning flashes while also printing out space suits if the air has been let out(some fabrics should be in the med manufacturer and also in a crate in the little storeroom nearby), rogue borgs can be dealt with if people dont panic and gear up. even better, gear up some before there is even a crisis.

the borg programing you describe is pretty much same what i already said, also last time i checked borgs are easily killed by electrocution, and EMP (or was that another server?)

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he also said light frame borgs could be the only ones with hands. which i guess is not too bad since they die even to taser shots sometimes

finnaly someone at least half read my post!

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Fellow players i noticed that MOST OF YOU DID NOT READ MY SUGGESTION AT ALL, i strongly reccomend reading it and commenting on that instead of replying to other peoples posts who probably didnt even skimm my post at all! i already explained how to balance it, and also i think borgs should have an option (set by roboticist) to be free , or AI independant but still follow the laws to prevent for example antag hijackin the AI (or rogue AI) and then via AI (or AI itself) taking control ower other borgs! Also borgs should be able to do the roboticists job (in case of him/her being dead or somethin).

I am not going to repeat myself every page or two just cause you guys are LAZY TO READ THE FIRST POST! Please do instead of semi-derailing the topic.

I honestly didn't see any of that in your first post.

I'm actually not sure what you were originally trying to suggest besides secborgs and borgs with hands.

then i suggest opening yer eyes paying attention and re-reading i kept my post short as possible, because otherwise people dont read it cause its too long! But i guess there is no help in most cases which dont read at all.

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I would ask people who are inexperienced in borgplay, to actually get some experience! First thing borgs are litterally human brains in metal body! (in this game/server at least). Light borgs are a lot more fragile than humans, even if they had fully reinforced head,so they cant be oneshoted and killed too easily, a few decent hits to the limbs/torso would incapacitate them, and the attacker could drag the head (or whats leftover) to the grinder easily and with less hassle than he would need with other humans (where with a human usually brewin some sleepy chems is needed, that means acess to labs at least, while he could toolbox the light borg with same efficiency). Seeing the light borg (even with fully reinforced head) be able to use hands but not job modules (with free equipment iit provides seems more than balanced.

We could litterally add a new module "humanoid module" which gives no equipment whatsoever (besides maybe a flashlight,crowbar and fireextinguisher for emergencies), but allows usage of hands! The module would be limited to light bodies only (but maybe ignoring the head) so if this is to be implemented minor code changes/additions need doing! It always baffled me why borgs have hands they cannot use....

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forgot to add... whoever complained about "dual weapon wielding borgs" they exist on other servers without anyone complaining (altho those servers have admins that ban ya when they please) but may i remind that humans can have their arms replaced with weapons too? or even better wield weapons in both hands? aint that the same? and sec borgs i proposed would start with tazers, energy guns, and cuffs at best, nothing lethal (altho i bet a skilled borg with propulsion upgrade could arrest someone and space them).
Another complaint was how powergamers would shift to borgs... well lemme tell ya when servers were still EXTENDED, we had miners... actually doing their jobs (well nearly everyone did, i usually caused chernobyl with the engine, as i was still learning) but they suffocated often, and always had a poor start (no drills) so i forcefully borged them... when they died... instead of cloning them... they disliked it at first, none of them knew how to use borgs (until i explained) but when they saw they start well equipped as a borg, need no air, can work longer with a better battery, and can actually survive explosions (that were common) with only arms missing (or in some cases only torso or head would survive) they started to line up every round... i am not jokin all 5 miners would round up for borging, usual mods were, propulsion, mesonics, selfrepair, and in some cases shield too!
Were they powergaming? i wouldnt call that powergaming, as all they did is their actual job, and back then it was heaven for metalurgy and power cells... i think then i made the most powerful cells (security loved their 1000+ cells) geneticists did some DNA research to the end finnaly  (instead of dragging corpses and cloning non stop) they actually managed to cram 4-5 powers into people and make them stable! Captain had most powerful version of the lasergun with selfcharging cell! (from some artifact i think). We even made interesting aloys! Damn i miss extended! Can we have it back?

[Frank_Stein]

Individual borg laws would be interesting during those storms when the AI gets random laws. Imagine every silicone getting it's own rando laws.

Maybe have law changes work where they have to be applied physically to borg brains, and have a console where each law was plainly visible where modifications to the default ones were highlighted for quick reference.

[Arborinus]

I for one welcome our new robot overlords who definitely aren't the ones behind this thread 

If anything, most of these suggestions should become the responsibility of the Roboticist, so they actually have something to do.

[Nnystyxx]

Ia ia. Roboticists need something to do besides change out borg batteries at the start and then be irrelevant forever and then maybe get their stuff stolen by the Mechanics.

[Delta]

Brobots should be able to simulate human metabolisms so they can get drunk. That is all.

[Frank_Stein]

Ia ia. Roboticists need something to do besides change out borg batteries at the start and then be irrelevant forever and then maybe get their stuff stolen by the Mechanics.

Truth. One thing I'd like to see: Programmable Robots

Things you can build, give a list of simple commands to (walk left 5 times, wait 3 seconds, walk up 2 times, pick up/use item, etc)
And have them carry them out. Lots of possibilities with that, good and bad.

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Brobots should be able to simulate human metabolisms so they can get drunk. That is all.

You know how engineering borgs can carry gas canisters? Broborgs oughta have an internal still, so they can eat wheat/grapes/potatoes and dispense beer/wine/vodka

The fuller the still, the drunker the borg

[poland spring]

You know how engineering borgs can carry gas canisters? Broborgs oughta have an internal still, so they can eat wheat/grapes/potatoes and dispense beer/wine/vodka

The fuller the still, the drunker the borg

https://youtu.be/rmeGq2mg-Bw
This needs to be a thing, broborgs could stand to be more "useful"

[Vitatroll]

Allow borgs to recharge by drinking pls.

[misto]

Individual borg laws would be interesting during those storms when the AI gets random laws. Imagine every silicone getting it's own rando laws.

Maybe have law changes work where they have to be applied physically to borg brains, and have a console where each law was plainly visible where modifications to the default ones were highlighted for quick reference.

sounds like it would be a good upgrade to the robotics control consoles we currently have

[Nnystyxx]

I second Frank_Stein's Lego Mindstorms robots idea, programmable stuff and shareable fartscripts are goodtimes