[CLOSED PR] Clone defects occur based on time since clone scan data saved

[Kotlol]

Okay more and more this is dividing people and a poll will probably divide the base more.
As much as some people are in favor of this. I tend to like more chill... and if I die and have myself be prescanned to have that as a safety net.
I like the CHOICE.

If I don't want it to matter or make it harder, I'd be puritan OR in some cases, I do not take the scan cause it is funnier. Once again MY CHOICE.

This stuff and the suggestion of removing pre-scan... undermines MY CHOICE of an easier relaxing time.
But I had a round where I didnt get scanned.. and it took medbay having my body for 10+ mins in their bay and... They let me rot to death :|
I was salty like hell... cause I died in medbay infront of doctors who could have scanned me.

Heck I died prescanned, my disk blinking and it took... well 15+ mins before they noticed: Oh crap this guy is dead, lets scan em.
I could have respawned as a new charater in that time. So even prescanning in both disk and even before the disk change didn't get me instacloned.

But the real reason I bring this stuff up....
I am just seeing this as a hardcore vs casual problem.
We made hygiene optional since it was ANNOYING to maintain and now we are basically reintroducing it for people who want to use pre-scanning.

Like I hear people say: Well now medbay gets to do something during quiet hours.
That's just it... lately medbay has been anything but quiet with shifts I am on.

In my opinion, if you all want to really add this. Classic only, I'd wouldn't mind that.
But overall I rather have a different mechanic then I introduced in an earlier post.
But what I don't want is my choice to become a hassle with no alternatives.

But I would be fine with let's say.. removing pre-cloning.

EDIT:
I notice a lot of the previous posts mention: FIND THE BODY.
Okay the body doesn't get pinged... it can be tossed out or dispossed em.
Or can get gibbed. There is no way you can fight it but pre-scanning.

[mralexs]

I really don't like this for many of the reasons previously stated

[BurgerWithButter]

My reply MAY BE INCOMPREHENSIBLE but I’d like to offer my thoughts anyhow

This PR honestly doesn’t seem too huge for me. As somebody who gets cloned somewhat frequently and plays a ton of security with the clone defect trait I’d welcome more cloning defects. This feels like a small deterrent toward running head first into danger because “I got a scan at minute 3”

I’m also on the side of “death should mean more”. The amount of times I’ve heard people apathetic to somebody being killed or being killed themselves because “oh I got a clonescan this morning” lessens a lot of antagonist interactions. I’ve had people say almost verbatim “shoot me I’m scanned”

I agree with others in saying make sure this change is noted beyond just the change log, either automated PDA messages or yellow/orange lights. But if you get a scan at round start and manage to die at minute 75 a major defect seems like a decent way to make that death mean a little more.
(Plus like 80% of clone defects are just missing arms or coming out a little burnt I doubt this change will be super noticeable)

[Solenoid]

I'm personally against any further nerfs to cloning. I feel like the current system is just fine, disks are better than I'd expected but I have no real interest in going in 4-5 times a shift to get scanned. This change doesn't actually "fix" prescanning, it just punishes players who want to do things other than wait in medbay or pester doctors for continuous, repeated clonescans.

I am personally of the opinion that if someone has a desire to rush an antag with the idea that they can just get cloned, or something similar, they will go through the effort of getting scanned multiple times to never get defects because they want to be able to rush that antag again, I don't see how this is a mechanical issue vs. a player one.

 This change really only punishes, as others have discussed, jobs like miners or scientists, who are likely to do a lot of things away from the station and rarely have the opportunity to come back for a rescan. Considering these jobs also have the highest frequency of events that cause the destruction of a body, I think this is basically just a major nerf for scientists and miners and really a non-issue for other players who are sufficiently diligent. Sorry, Beaker McArtifact, your body was turned into a pile of ash when you tested that wishgranter. Now you have 3 minor defects and a major defect, which you better hope there's enough doctors, roboticists, or geneticists to fix.

I don't know, I just don't really see the point in this change, personally. The gameplay added is very minimal for doctors, it has the possibility of only really affecting a few jobs and does so in a non-engaging way, and is otherwise not going to fix the actual issue of prescanning that it claims to fix, it just punishes people who prescan because doctors will probably not wait for the body to clone from a disk if they have one. I can't see what good it would do the game and just adds another chore which detracts from the gameplay people want to engage with and increases busywork for medical which is already usually very busy. Not a fan.

[Drakios]

PR "Why's this needed?" Updated:

Getting a pre-scan early into the shift is a zero-risk way to largely eliminate the danger of death for the rest of the round. This change encourages getting clone-scans only before knowingly risky activity, without removing the ability to get a pre-scan entirely.

A separate issue with zero-risk cloning that this change addresses it the any complexity or depth to cloning; anyone and everyone will try to clone everyone, regardless of circumstance. This adds some decision making when determining when to clone: do you wait for the body for a fresh scan, or use the disk and take a potential risk on the backup.

Furthermore, zero-risk, immediate cloning can and has been a severe impediment for antagonists: vampires unable thrall someone because they're cloned; antagonist identities outed immediately; kidnapping moot due to the victim having a disk.

Lastly, having perfect clone behavior affects player behavior in a major way since the risk of sitting the round out is zero. You are allowed to take unlimited risk with a clone scan in a way that puts antagonists on the back foot; antags have to play to live, but crew only needs to rush them knowing coming back to life is a click away.

Overall I think choices you're asked to make in-game should require judgement and impact the way the round plays out. While pre-scanning provides the latter, it fails at the former by being a zero-question, every-shift action for a lot of people.

After reading this and most of the other replies I changed my mind a bit, I think it makes it so for example that some medics try harder to keep someone alive and are not just eh shucks we clone them. It makes it even more important to keep the one person alive, or like already stated finding the body.

This being said I think there should still be other things maybe added or changed, like coordinates to find the body, cause getting the info "died in space" makes it very hard to find a body.
This change could also motivate people to be more careful and if they really don't wanna die in the risk of getting a defect they have to be a bit more careful, sure it can always happen that something randomly kills you, but its not like this isn't a known thing about the game.

I would also say maybe the timer should be 20 minutes but again I dont think that would change to much? 

Im like Ribbert I like the clone defects its very funny to me, but I also understand why people are "afraid" of it, maybe a test merge would help so people can see how it really is and how bad it is. 

You could maybe also give medbay a body finder, were they can put in the disk of someone similar to the blood tracker and look for the body if coordinates are to much.

At this point im neutral to the change, if it would be added like it is right now im okay with it, but I think some minor changes would make it better. 

I also think people are a bit to serious sometimes when it comes to "perma death" cause you can always respawn sure not as the same character but every round is a story so your death is part of it, enjoy the chaos that unfolds and try to be more careful. Its a silly space farting game were the dumbest things can kill you, I understand that it can be demotivating that if you planned something the whole round and it gets fucked up is annoying but again this is nothing new. In my opinion you should be always ready that you can die this round or before you did XYZ at least for me it makes it much more barrable to randomly die. 

Also, the defects give medbay at least sometimes more to do or genetics also it can lead to funny or interesting RP and storys for people

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

In my opinion, if you all want to really add this. Classic only, I'd wouldn't mind that.

): classic needs this less than RP. people hardly ever pre-scan, and cloning defects matter WAY MORE

[mralexs]

Seems like a good idea to me, making it so prescanning isn't just an instant "I win" button in the event you're murdered. Big problem right now is antags killing someone, and that person getting popped out of the cloner within 30 seconds of them dying. Now it should make it so finding the body is a priority, so you can do a fresh scan and pop them out with no defects, but in the event the body is unrecoverable they're still not shit outta luck. It also encourages people to pop back into medbay to refresh their clone scan.

I have to ask, how often does this happen? On classic I've had to wait over 10 minutes to notice the disk blinking in the cloner unless there is extreme action happening and even then, its not a problem for the antag unless the cloned person gets their stuff back. This is such a major change to cloning and for what? I haven't even seen the benefits for cloning being disk based, only that its more annoying to go through when you have a body right there and you're trying to bring them back.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

I have to ask, how often does this happen? On classic I've had to wait over 10 minutes to notice the disk blinking in the cloner unless there is extreme action happening and even then, its not a problem for the antag unless the cloned person gets their stuff back. This is such a major change to cloning and for what? I haven't even seen the benefits for cloning being disk based, only that its more annoying to go through when you have a body right there and you're trying to bring them back.

I've had clone disks ready before on classic and had the guy who previously scanned me, forget that he did so, and thus kill himself before realizing he could clone me. 

Maybe when there's like over 25 people and a fully staffed medbay then people will consistently be cloned immediately after death and that could be a thorn in the side of antagonists, assuming it's not an antagonist type that directly benefits from more humans to kill

BUT THEN there's so many ways to remove people from rounds, especially with the chaos of 25+ players. I don't think you even need medbay ID card access to remove clone records from the disk rack. Most people don't even know how to repair the cloning console if you hit it once with an item and break the screen on it. A welding tank explosion could probably break the cloning pod if you get lucky, but a maxcap TTV definitely could and those are trivial to make, and teleport.

Oh yeah and you can really stupidly easy cut off the power to cloning too. cut a wire, blow up the APC, if that doesn't work for you, then I must just get most incompetent players trying to clone me because nearly every time people just immediately give up if cloning is out of power.

[Lord_earthfire]

Okay more and more this is dividing people and a poll will probably divide the base more.
As much as some people are in favor of this. I tend to like more chill... and if I die and have myself be prescanned to have that as a safety net.
I like the CHOICE.

If I don't want it to matter or make it harder, I'd be puritan OR in some cases, I do not take the scan cause it is funnier. Once again MY CHOICE.

I mean, you point at the problem.

It's your choice. And there should be -much- more situations where it should not be. For the sake of the other players rounds.

Does that mean that there are situations where you are taken out of the round and need to wait for a midround/respawn? Yes. Is the waiting unecessary? No.

This is a game where round removal is needed for it to function. You die, the role is unfilled. Station function decline until ceasation and shuttle call. Other people react to that and thus the game stays dynamic.

[Kotlol]

This is a game where round removal is needed for it to function. You die, the role is unfilled. Station function decline until ceasation and shuttle call. Other people react to that and thus the game stays dynamic.

Okay... bomb cloner every round, problem solved. How fun it is to remove the cloner every round with a bomb.

If we have to nerf cloning or remove it, why not just give every antag a bomb so they can bomb the cloner.
Doctors die so people will die more too. Win win win for everyone right?

Yea I took it to an extreme but what's technically stopping antags from bombing the cloner each round?
Yes cargo can order a new one but not at the start of the round.
This just moving the bar for "We need this mechanic so antags can have more fun."
But why is it fun for antags to kill as much people? That's so lame... The point of an antag in RP is to make an engaging narrative that might lead to death.
But you know what antags can also do that's fun? Sabotage things, cause an uprising, make a game where losing is death on the station.
And that last one yes, requires you to disable the cloner so chuck a bomb at it and subsume the AI. Problem solved.
To me the most fun antags are those who lead the round to fun things like a mega wrestling tournament with the prize being that the antags do not bomb the station.
That stuff is fun.
Anyway enough side tracking on this. I hear some good suggestions that is in favor of this nerf.
So I am going to add those and add some suggestions with it.


"You could maybe also give medbay a body finder, were they can put in the disk of someone similar to the blood tracker and look for the body if coordinates are to much." 
Good idea number 1, with one huge caviat. If the antag disguises or changeling husks to them... it betrays their disguise, RUINING it.
But I can work with this.

So insted we remove having a body ready with 90%. We still have CLONE SCANNING, but it works differently. Insted I recommend the following changes.
1: All disks are without a name or label as well who is cloned from them. (they need their ID to get their name back).
2: Disks only show the genetic profile of someone but that isn't enough to CLONE EM. You need a bio sample of them. (Like an organ or brain or such. Now you have to find a body or body part... So now gibbing isn't denying you clone scans.)
3: Disks from "scans" are only there so you can get cloned from a body part. Without it, medbay can do it but it will have with defects.
4: Security disks do not have this problem. They still get the 1 time no cloning defects scan from their security disks.
5: Disks can be emag scrambled. Forcing major defects regardless. 

Now why I don't allow blood samples for the "Dna sample" is simple. Anyone can give a lil blood and store it easily. It just adds another step to the cloning that is easily avoidable. HOWEVER... having to have a part of the body at hand is much harder. Sure hardcore meta players will either give a lizard tail or have a body part laying in medbay to avoid perma death, but even then... they have to give up something or have something specific to do this.
And I don't think every prescan fanboy will go: "Yea I am going to have robotics take my arm, but a robotic one on it so medbay can clone me whenever."

I just think this is a better medium for players as it hits the perfect middle ground of making pre-scans worth something, but not having a sample much harsher.
This also means gibbing a body is not the perfect way of removing a pre-scanned player away.

Eitherway I think that's the best middle ground we can go for.... cause anything like "Disks blinking" will give away the antag's disguise wich is one of the main points I do agree with. If anything indiciates "This player is dead" will make that antags disguise NULL AND VOID.
The only players who should have that luxury are players with health implants or security/captain.

Any others ideas to add?

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

Eitherway I think that's the best middle ground we can go for.... cause anything like "Disks blinking" will give away the antag's disguise wich is one of the main points I do agree with. If anything indiciates "This player is dead" will make that antags disguise NULL AND VOID.
The only players who should have that luxury are players with health implants or security/captain.

Any others ideas to add?

kotlol can't antags just remove the disk. I think there's a reason why player deaths notify medical staff, there's no fun to being dead and lost forever to something that wasn't antagonist related

[Kotlol]

kotlol can't antags just remove the disk. I think there's a reason why player deaths notify medical staff, there's no fun to being dead and lost forever to something that wasn't antagonist related

Thats the main issue of the problem.

If "Disk name" is blinking. You know that crewmate died and thus... Doctor tells Security: "This guy is dead, if you see him alive, it ain't them."

I do want to keep it or maybe just make sure there are no NAMES of people on the disk or whoever.

I think something like that ALONE would make kills more useful without adding something like: "Antag has to kill, remove the disk, remove witnesses and gib the body."
If each disk and cloning has NO NAME ON IT. Then the person will always be a "Doe"

With only other people having to collaborate for impersonation.

This suggestion was ment to nerf pre-scans and give antags more reasons to kill and able to take an idenity from their victims.
But I'd say that the suggestion never adresses it. I am just trying to find a middle ground where we all agree; Yea this is cool.

So at the minimal... clones have no names till they get their IDs, The disks are always unnamed so it doesn't go off and say: "This guy died."
if we want antags to take over names or make thralls out of their victims.. we need to somehow hide the idenity of the victim in the cloner.
Either by not STATING it or by NOT NAMING it.

[Whele]

I've been thinking some more about this change and why I don't like it, apart from what I've previously said... I really just don't want to think about getting recloned if I've already gone through the trouble. The perfectionist in me would always be thinking about "oh if I want to stay on top of my cloning defects, I've gotta get recloned every 15 minutes for the rest of the shift" and I really am not a fan of that being the "ideal" way to engage with the cloning mechanic. Even if the minor defects aren't a big deal I always have the urge to try to optimize my gameplay and this feature would be super annoying for me personally.

[Lord_earthfire]

Even if the minor defects aren't a big deal I always have the urge to try to optimize my gameplay and this feature would be super annoying for me personally.

I mean, if you want a fast and optimal route to return into the round, borging exists. And maybe it will be used more when cloning becomes less safe.

Yea I took it to an extreme but what's technically stopping antags from bombing the cloner each round?
Yes cargo can order a new one but not at the start of the round.
This just moving the bar for "We need this mechanic so antags can have more fun."

You misunderstood me. I talked about deaths contributing to the round of everyone. Which they don't, if the player returns within 3 minutes out of the cloner due to prescanning.

Honestly, the more i read about it, the more i thing ikea is right that prescanning in general is the issue.

[Kotlol]

Honestly, the more i read about it, the more i thing ikea is right that prescanning in general is the issue.

If prescan is the problem. It will just flip back in the other way. "Gibbing is a problem since it's a sure fireway I cannot be cloned"
"throwing my body into space so no one can find it is a problem, even if they do im rotten and cannot be cloned."

Goon is always a more chill and silly code base and I find this direction very odd and out of place.

I just don't see the fun in less crew = more fun since it generates conflicts.

This is why I don't mind it being classic only, since in classic I expect that stuff. But.. in roleplay the more slower and more interacting of the bunch?
Having to constantly make sure you won't get a defect is just bringing back the stinky lines.

This is why it's contraversial in my opinion. You prescan so you can come back safe, you get one for free. After that you get cloning defects.

But as I said earlier, this is basically:
DEATH NEEDS TO MEAN MORE AND CONFLICT NEEDS TO EXIST vs I AM FUNNY SPACE FARTY MAN WHO MAKES WEEDS AND CAN DIE BUT I FEEL SAFE WITH MY PRESCAN! I CAN DIE FUNNY WAYS AND COME BACK ALTEAST ONCE!

The second part will go: Now I gotta keep going back to medbay every 10 mins. And Miners and Scientists are annoyed.

But if we are so INCLINED to try this, add a trait that this never happens. "Strong genes" so people have to take a minus point to get it.
Simple? Like throw people a bone.