thoughts on bringing the 10 minute respawn timer to classic

[meaow589]

In my opinion sometime being antag and got valid hunt so fast I got be experienced like 3 minute of the round by some people .and I feel like nah that is too early.atleast give the chance for antag respawn to become another crew and play around station is fine.

[Kotlol]

no thank u. if theres a rampage going on and someones properly wiping out the station, i dont know how youre supposed to pretend u dont know thats going on and not prepare for it immediately. i think there would be no shortage of people abusing it, no matter how many times you ahelp. not to mention all the minor abuses that people generally wouldnt bother ahelping. people would get mad they got killed then come back 10 mins later and start validhunting on the basis of "in my previous life they killed me" whether they admit it or not. i think itd just be more annoying than good. also it gives even less of a reason to be in ling hiveminds.

This is would be a-helpable.
As for ling hiveminds? You can't leave them after being eaten (unless they changed it).
Ling hiveminds are their own problem of how much it sucks being part of one and how lil interaction you have and how lings kinda don't want to deploy critters cause it would reveal who they are and if they die that DNA is lost very easily cept for eye ones.


I still see people complaining death is TOO easily avoided anyway.
"Death has no meaning" "Death needs more meaning" "Death this, death that."

But in reality... death turns on spectator mode, allows you to interact with the living via Ouija (wich is clunky on purpose) or as ghost-drone/critter (wich isn't you)

Why do we have to punish players for being killed so heavily they need to be removed so far from the round? Isn't the point of dieing that you lose everything you worked for that shift and respawning would just set that all to 0? 
Isn't it more fun for a rampaging antagonist that respawns happen so they can rampage more?

I can only see it being bad for someone like Nukies, Blobs or Flock as they would have to fight respawning enemies. (even if it takes long)
But you can easily disable it when their "Timers of victory start" no one can respawn. So priming a nuke? NO RESPAWNS ALLOWED.

Anyway it seems like a side track but I want to know the full on culture and thinking on why "death is cheap, no respawns" as it would probably help everyone think on one line on this topic.

[George_Manning]

Eh, I don't really like it. Death is already pretty easy to counteract given cloning, classic rounds are already shorter than rp rounds. I think it makes sense for RP to have it to mitigate the impact of death on long rounds, but not for classic. You should be afraid to die and death should be impactful.

I agree. Death is death. On RP where escalation is forced it's not too big a deal, but on classic, I think having the "I'll just get the 100% guaranteed respawn in 10 minutes" would lead to way more cavalier attitudes.

I would add that this would significantly alter the balance of classic - again, on RP, with escalation and a general "Nobody is gonna murder everyone" attitude, this works fine, but on classic:

What about changeling hiveminds? If everybody can respawn in 10 minutes, why would they stay in the changeling hivemind and help them out as a limb critter?
What about weapons built around ammo scarcity, like the SPES-12? If I use all my ammo mowing down an angry mob, and 10 minutes later the same exact angry mob is back, that doesn't feel good.
What about jobs like secoff? If I murder 2 secoffs to complete my dastardly plot in peace, and 2 secoffs spawn in immediately after, what have I accomplished?
What about people being cloned after somebody latejoins with their old job? Do we just have two captains now? 
What about midroll antags? Not only would it mess with the pools of potential takers, it would also mean the potential for a ton of people to respawn knowing that a hunter is about to appear onstation, for instance.
What about Flockminds? The best way to beat them is a human wave, and it's hard to ignore the threat they pose when you respawn.

As somebody who played RP regularly before switching to Classic, and has played in both lowpop and highpop RP and Classic environments:
I appreciate the benefits of parity, but I just don't think this would work.

[Cindertroy1]

I'm not totally against the idea of respawns, as it can be really annoying dying early in the round and having to wait until the round ends to get to play again. But I feel like just giving classsic more midround rolls for critters, pests and the like would fit better than a 10 minute respawn timer. It probably is worth at least a test merge on the respawn timer to see how it goes, though

[Kotlol]

What about changeling hiveminds? If everybody can respawn in 10 minutes, why would they stay in the changeling hivemind and help them out as a limb critter?
What about weapons built around ammo scarcity, like the SPES-12? If I use all my ammo mowing down an angry mob, and 10 minutes later the same exact angry mob is back, that doesn't feel good.
What about jobs like secoff? If I murder 2 secoffs to complete my dastardly plot in peace, and 2 secoffs spawn in immediately after, what have I accomplished?
What about people being cloned after somebody latejoins with their old job? Do we just have two captains now? 
What about midroll antags? Not only would it mess with the pools of potential takers, it would also mean the potential for a ton of people to respawn knowing that a hunter is about to appear onstation, for instance.
What about Flockminds? The best way to beat them is a human wave, and it's hard to ignore the threat they pose when you respawn.

As somebody who played RP regularly before switching to Classic, and has played in both lowpop and highpop RP and Classic environments:
I appreciate the benefits of parity, but I just don't think this would work.

Now this is a good explaintion but I like to address a few points myself

Hiveminds: If people quit being part of a hivemind, give the changeling more DNA. Hiveminds need to be reworked to an extend so the victims can do more to begin with.
Sec off respawn: Can already be a problem with players joining right after a few died.  Now it's just witnessed. If anything, just turn off security officer respawns. Thus forcing security workers to be extra careful with their disks, since if they are dead and gone.. thats 1 security staff less.
Captain respawn issue: Already an issue without a respawn timer. Aka going afk in the cryo sleep and coming back and now theres 2 captains. Heck I seen this happen A LOT IN RP where I join late, see a fun role and then the main role comes back as well and now there's 2 HoP's.
Midroll Antags? Anti-metaing rule, it's that simple.

These are the only concerns that can be addressed or changed. Anything else.. yea I got nothing.  These are legit good reasons to worry about respawning.

[Zamujasa]

hive minds give people an opportunity to be evil. not everyone will stay in them (i refuse to) but some do.

if the respawn timer has a large impact on that it doesn't seem immediately apparent on rp.

[Chomusuke]

Id like to see it especially from a stealth antag perspective.

Either dragging someone to cloning yourself (or somewhere where people will find the victim before they rot) or knowing you just ended the round for someone who has to watch for up to an hour, are both not really appealing. Especially since a lot of the times the cloned victim will just rat you out.

Knowing the victim can still participate in the round and rewarding stealthy behavior sound
good to me.

An issue I see are people with just a single character like me is there an option to respawn with a random appearance and name but keeping other char settings like traits and pin or would one have to make a separate character with random name and appearance for that?

[Azurnite]

Spitballing ideas here that could be discussed:

1. After a designated time, respawns are not available. For example, after minute 30 you cannot respawn.

2. During certain gamemodes like Blob, Nukies, Flock, disable respawn timers entirely.

3. Possibly split the DNR command into two separate commands. One will just set you to DNR, but the second sets you to DNR and lets you view what antags there are and who they are. The latter would disable the ability to respawn while the former still lets you be eligible for respawns.