[CLOSED PR] Removes additional access given HoS and Sec Offs on the RP servers.

[Drago156]

This PR came out of a discussion on the discord, where it came up that the access levels between main sec and RP sec are drastically different for no good reason. Carbadox offered to make a PR to fix that by removing the extra access that RP sec has that main sec doesn't. This isn't necessarily about RP sec being bad with access, rather about mending a discrepancy between the two servers that can be confusing.

Honestly I think it's understandable the pushback this PR is getting, because personally I'd rather just have main sec get their access restored. That said it doesn't really make much sense for a role on one server to have different access than the same role on a different server, possibly leading to confusion for players trying out the role on the opposite server. Either way the access should probably be matched on both servers.

[THISISANICEGAME]

I really don't think sec on main should get more access, they simply don't need it, my same point stands for RP sec, they simply don't need all that access and I do think security on main should have less access than it has now, stuff like medbay, but this is outside of the scope of this PR.

[KikiMofo]

I didn't realize RP sec got all access. I like in main when running from sec and going behind a science door and closing it in secs face and they can't do shit other than yell for the AI to open. Always fun.

[Technature]

Doesn't sec have science access on the normal server? I could of sworn they did.

[Drago156]

Doesn't sec have science access on the normal server? I could of sworn they did.

They have gensci access, but not toxins, chemistry, sometimes telesci, and sometimes artlab.

[nefarious6th]

This isn't necessarily about RP sec being bad with access, rather about mending a discrepancy between the two servers that can be confusing.

That said it doesn't really make much sense for a role on one server to have different access than the same role on a different server, possibly leading to confusion for players trying out the role on the opposite server. Either way the access should probably be matched on both servers.

Knowing now that this was the intent, I don't think difference between the two is necessarily a problem; just like there's different server rules to promote different kinds of interactions, adding a little lenience in access or more responsibility to a role that's meant to be somewhat responsible for the station seems okay and makes sense if the goal is to offer a different experience on the server outright. Same reason I guess that people were interested in seeing a non-antag Captain role for RP. Things will vary in the interest of what makes sense given specific server micro-cultures. I don't think RP needs to be "brought in line" with Classic, and I don't think Classic needs to be "brought in line" with RP for this stuff, we can just note the difference on the wiki (which I understand it wasn't before!) and maybe in the roundstart job-role/goals pop-up in the chat for RP?

[KikiMofo]

Doesn't sec have science access on the normal server?  I could of sworn they did.

Depends on the map if the doors are separate from general science access and toxins/chem/telesci.

[BatElite]

FWIW RP sec doesn't have AA, but I'm not sure what they don't have exactly because those access lists are just long jumbles. Definitely no head offices though.

[Leeanei]

Sec access on main and on RP are not that different because of how many doors have general engineering, sci and medbay access tied into their advanced accesses. In all my experience the one place I usually couldn't get into was toxins, command areas and genetics, but the rest of the station was fair game.

Most of the issues people run into with RP sec more has to do with a lack of fair play, and most accesses(QM excluded!) won't change that.

[Carbadox]

I've kind of lost what the general opinions in this thread have been but the mainly, and almost only, reason I made this PR is so that RP server Sec would be closer in line to what Main is. The additional access was added in a time when general population was low and since that's no longer the case, I believe it's more than appropriate to revert that change back to its original form.

This isn't in response to bad Sec behaviour, there's just simply no reason for Security have more access on RP than they do on Main.

Complaints of getting stuck behind a door while a fugitive gets away is silly to me. You're playing on a server where the scope of damage an antag can do are cut down considerably, in addition to the fact that almost every round on RP goes on for over 2 hours. You gain some you lose some, that's the idea of roleplay. If there's a Captain or AI, get them to help. If Security starts carrying tools to hack open doors then that's an issue with the person. And honestly, more egregious meta knowledge activities happen on RP that people seem fairly okay with.

[EristheSlackWyrm]

I strongly disagree with removing all access from the HoS due to them often having to juggle several different cases and issues, with very little time. Even on RP hos is hectic and having to ask to be let in causes a lot of stress and slows down things conciderably. Crew often calls for sec to their departments to come in a hurry and having to wait to be let in can cause situations to either go very badly (people being killed/dying from injuries). Being let in by the AI is not reliable and can often take 30-60 seconds if it happens at all.

In my experience sec and especially hos is mainly Roleplay and talking. It is the main thing we do, and loosing most of the access would remove a lot of those possible interactions with the crew. Just because it's the roleplay server doesn't mean certain departments aren't likely to ignore you, and removing that access won't fix that issue.
I hope I don't sound selfish in this argument, but being able to enter the departments we are supposed to protect adds interactions not just for me but also the people I have to come talk to.

A hos/officer without access would likely be very limited to only public areas, get ignored more often, sometimes give up on cases we need to help out with, loosing out on interaction.

From a roleplay standpoint, I see it fit for HoS to have all access. They are Command staff, equal or higher than the HoP. And while on Paper the captain outranks them, in practise crew will trust the HoS more than anyone else. Even after Captain was made to have strickter requirements, both with removal of most antag roles and having a rounds played requirement, I still feel many of them are unreliable if not detrimental to the station productivity IC. In almost every round I've played as HoS, I feel that everyone looks up to me for help and the final decision in most cases, from Shuttle call, crime punishment, budget matters, demotion/promotion. Including captains.

As for officers, it makes sense to me for them to have less access than the HoS, but still general access to most if not all departments. They are after all, hired to protect the station, the crew, and all the departments. They have a reason to enter departments when someone calls for them. Doing patrolls in departments is arguably not needed, but I do not see it as a problem that warrants removal of the access to be a good sollution.

Sec is important on RP due to the rules saying crew should not deal with crime on their own. Having to wait to be let in does not add fun roleplay to the game, but adds serious frustration. And I have not ever seen having the access to begin with being detrimental to the roleplay, fun of everyone, the story of rounds. I do not have much antag experience the past few years due to turning it off most of the time so I might not have their side of the story. But when I have played Antag, sec being able to come into departments didn't make things any worse for me.

Bringing the RP servers sec access more in line with Main seems detrimental to the gameplay to me, and in fact HoS not having All access on Main was a bit of a shock to me and made me play there less as it made no sense gameplay or lore/roleplay wise.

When I do play other departments than sec or clown, it makes me feel I can trust sec to be more reliable if they have the access. And knowing they don't have it I might end up relying on them less due to the added time it takes to let them in.

[Luxizzle]

There's already been enough posts that i share my opinion with. I do not agree with this change. The argument to bring main and RP sec in line makes no sense as the style of gameplay is completely different on both sides. If its not documented and people aren't aware of this, put it on the wiki.

I would like to see what could be possible with the threat level system thats discussed here and in the post here https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=15959 expanded upon, as i do feel its sometimes easy to ruin a hostage situation for example because we can just walk in. And making the armory with breaching tools actually useful would be good to see too as currently theres almost never a good reason to open the armory.