Goonhub
01-17-2023, 01:37 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2023, 01:42 AM by Waffleloffle. Edited 2 times in total.)
since herb is allergic to being straightforward, I'll sum up what this PR concerns
on the RP servers, it was possible for observer ghosts to activate the 10-minute respawn timer for themselves by spectating a mob, then returning to free-roaming observation. when performed, this would put the respawn timer at the top of the screen for observer ghosts, and at the end of those 10 minutes, they would be able to respawn from the title screen like someone who had died in-round would be able to
this exploit was something of an open secret - several of the RP admins knew about it, I've personally ahelped about it a couple times and gotten the go-ahead, and some admins claim to have used it regularly themselves. yass even put in code to ensure that observer respawns would not be able to roll latejoin antag in the same commit that set all observers to DNR for the purposes of mid-round antag spawns that pulled from the ghost pool. that being said, it definitely doesn't feel intuitive or intentional. it ended up getting reported as a bug, and then patched in a commit one would never know was controversial unless they spectated the rp servers somewhat frequently
there's several points for and against embracing this as a feature. here's the main ones I see:
from the pro-observer respawn camp:
- it allows people to gauge the Vibe of a round so they can decide whether they want to join themselves. RP rounds usually go until the automatic shuttle call at 90 minutes, which is not a small time commitment
- if people aren't necessarily Feeling It at the start of a round, it means they don't have to cryo-ghost early on. while cryo-ghosting is by no means a negative thing, it can definitely impact the social environment of the other people on station if said person rolled a member of command, for example. and also cryo-ghosting can just look a lot like antag fishing, if done regularly enough
- it allows people to latejoin without the worry that they'll roll latejoin antagonist when they aren't feeling up to an antagonist round
- the potential for jank is much lower than it is for the other method of respawning as an observer (respawning as a ghostcritter, and then finding some way to get yourself killed. I'm not sure if it was fixed, but having my dead ghostcritter body get reclaimed after respawning as a player forcibly pulled my mind out of my body and left me stranded in the spectral realm)
from the anti-observer respawn camp:
- the potential for metagaming is very high. observers can readily see player inventories and antag-specifc HUDs, and potentially being able to take this information into an already-running round is a big risk. sure, you can ahelp if you notice someone doing it, but not every instance of metagaming is obvious
- it can contribute to cliquing issues by allowing people to curate their character or job choices to compliment the characters or jobs their friends are playing. you can already sort of see whether or not your friends are in-round by using the Who command, but being able to watch them for a bit and then join in may be too little spontaniety for the admins' comfort
- the current implementation is (or, well, was) inaccessible to new players. however, I believe herb's PR fixes this
I've personally used observer respawning on a regular basis, but I'm fine with whichever way the admins rule on this issue. I see validity in both the points for it and the points against it
as for zewaka's concern about keeping the codebase consistent between Classic and RP here, I don't think it's applicable to classic since (last time I checked anyways) classic lacks a respawn timer to begin with. if you die on Classic and don't get revived, you're basically out of the round. on the RP servers, once you die, a 10-minute timer starts that allows you to respawn from the title screen once it's finished. I don't know if this is something that admins can manually enable on classic
on the RP servers, it was possible for observer ghosts to activate the 10-minute respawn timer for themselves by spectating a mob, then returning to free-roaming observation. when performed, this would put the respawn timer at the top of the screen for observer ghosts, and at the end of those 10 minutes, they would be able to respawn from the title screen like someone who had died in-round would be able to
this exploit was something of an open secret - several of the RP admins knew about it, I've personally ahelped about it a couple times and gotten the go-ahead, and some admins claim to have used it regularly themselves. yass even put in code to ensure that observer respawns would not be able to roll latejoin antag in the same commit that set all observers to DNR for the purposes of mid-round antag spawns that pulled from the ghost pool. that being said, it definitely doesn't feel intuitive or intentional. it ended up getting reported as a bug, and then patched in a commit one would never know was controversial unless they spectated the rp servers somewhat frequently
there's several points for and against embracing this as a feature. here's the main ones I see:
from the pro-observer respawn camp:
- it allows people to gauge the Vibe of a round so they can decide whether they want to join themselves. RP rounds usually go until the automatic shuttle call at 90 minutes, which is not a small time commitment
- if people aren't necessarily Feeling It at the start of a round, it means they don't have to cryo-ghost early on. while cryo-ghosting is by no means a negative thing, it can definitely impact the social environment of the other people on station if said person rolled a member of command, for example. and also cryo-ghosting can just look a lot like antag fishing, if done regularly enough
- it allows people to latejoin without the worry that they'll roll latejoin antagonist when they aren't feeling up to an antagonist round
- the potential for jank is much lower than it is for the other method of respawning as an observer (respawning as a ghostcritter, and then finding some way to get yourself killed. I'm not sure if it was fixed, but having my dead ghostcritter body get reclaimed after respawning as a player forcibly pulled my mind out of my body and left me stranded in the spectral realm)
from the anti-observer respawn camp:
- the potential for metagaming is very high. observers can readily see player inventories and antag-specifc HUDs, and potentially being able to take this information into an already-running round is a big risk. sure, you can ahelp if you notice someone doing it, but not every instance of metagaming is obvious
- it can contribute to cliquing issues by allowing people to curate their character or job choices to compliment the characters or jobs their friends are playing. you can already sort of see whether or not your friends are in-round by using the Who command, but being able to watch them for a bit and then join in may be too little spontaniety for the admins' comfort
- the current implementation is (or, well, was) inaccessible to new players. however, I believe herb's PR fixes this
I've personally used observer respawning on a regular basis, but I'm fine with whichever way the admins rule on this issue. I see validity in both the points for it and the points against it
as for zewaka's concern about keeping the codebase consistent between Classic and RP here, I don't think it's applicable to classic since (last time I checked anyways) classic lacks a respawn timer to begin with. if you die on Classic and don't get revived, you're basically out of the round. on the RP servers, once you die, a 10-minute timer starts that allows you to respawn from the title screen once it's finished. I don't know if this is something that admins can manually enable on classic