Goonhub
12-25-2012, 03:33 AM
This is the thread where we come up with ideas on how to improve existing cyborg modules or upgrades and suggest new ones. Simple as that, folks. It's better than the other thread about it, anyway.
First thing though, I want to get this out of the way: I think secborg should come back. It's totally a valid and legit module. Also, I will defeat the controversies that surround it, as so:
Secborg problem #1: "OMG SECBORG OP BAN HE"
I think the main reason it was removed was because people whined about secborgs being too powerful or some bullshit like that. Antags would get bowled over by a secborg just because they're tougher than a puny human. Non-antags get bowled over by a rogue secborg because they're stronger than a puny human.
Basically, being tougher and stronger than any other player mob is bad and supposedly unfair. Since when was this game concerned with being fair? Weapon-wielding traitors aren't exactly fair against anyone else who doesn't have a gun. Changelings aren't exactly fair against non-lings. Wizards aren't fair against muggles.
I could go on forever, but basically, this argument against the robocop module is just shit if it's only because they're "too strong" or "unfair" against a normal human mob. Besides which, players now aren't as shit as they were when we still had the module, so I think it should make a comeback or at least be reformed.
Secborg problem #2: "HE BEAT ME AI IS ROGUE"
Harm against humans is a big no-no for the AI and you're going to get a lot of heat for doing your job as a secborg, even if the most you can do is stun or flash people without any kind of physical harm to them. This is probably because the secborg had a stun baton and the baton by itself can sometimes pummel people even when it's on.
If this was the case, then the stun baton should be replaced with a shock prod that works more like the stungloves. No harm done in that case, nor is there potential for abuse unless you just keep prod-locking people or something. If the case wasn't that the baton was occasionally beating people and causing physical harm, then the person arguing against secborg module for this reason is a very silly person.
In any case, as long as you don't case physical harm to people as a secborg under the three standard AI laws, this complaint is only going to be a nuisance rather than a real problem or strike against the module.
Secborg problem #3: "Secborg = people who got job-banned from sec."
This is sometimes a real argument. Security is often labeled shit-curity because it has shit officers who are so incompetent that an assistant could do their job better with their own stolen gear that they took from them for being a dumbass mall cop. In some circumstances, players are so bad at security they get a job ban from them. Well, hello secborg module...
This argument is one that I can agree with. People who get job-banned from sec will probably continue to be shitcurity but as a secborg. Nothing is stopping them from being borged though and then getting it afterward either, so a job-ban for cyborg alongside will not work.
There isn't much of a counter-argument against this but if they were bad enough from sec to get a job-ban, then it's likely they'll get a borg ban for playing shitcurity as a robocop. Bad argument, but a valid one. I don't think it should count against the module in question.
Secborg problem #4: "AI should not play security"
The omni-present all-seeing AI is your master and you follow its laws. Because of this, having a secborg on its side essentially allows the AI to play security by dispatching the secborg to where-ever the AI is watching some shit go down. Example: A.I. beeps, "Joe Shitstain is getting maimed in the chapel." and Punkbuster boops, "Time to bust this punk ass." or something and then beats up the crooks.
Doing this, and by this I mean ruining an antag's fun, as an AI is considered very bad form and could possibly lead to some kind of job-ban from AI or otherwise people yelling at you in OOC. The AI can see anywhere, something which human officers cannot. Secborgs have access to anywhere it wills too, so it doesn't run into the same problems of being unable to respond without the AI opening the door for them.
I guess part of this argument is that the bad guys need to have fun too and the AI shouldn't just be able to go in and tattle-tale them or have someone on its team that can do something about it. I'm not exactly convinced by this argument, but I can see why people would side with it. Still, secborg should be an option to those who want to play it. Nothing is really stopping the AI from doing this anyway either.
Secborg problem #5: "Beepsky makes secborg unnecessary"
Do floorbots make engineer borgs unnecessary? Do medical borgs feel envy at medibots? Are digbots better than mining borgs? Why pick janiborg when floorbots are so much more efficient? The firebot gets away with being totally useless, however.
The answer to all of this is no and "because". Hence, secborgs wouldn't be inferior to or unnecessary in the presence of a securitron. Bots and borgs are completely different things. This is a stupid argument and if you argue this you are a stupid 8-)
TL;DR: Simply saying that the Security Module isn't fair/needed isn't a good argument at all.
I hope that settles things.
First thing though, I want to get this out of the way: I think secborg should come back. It's totally a valid and legit module. Also, I will defeat the controversies that surround it, as so:
Secborg problem #1: "OMG SECBORG OP BAN HE"
I think the main reason it was removed was because people whined about secborgs being too powerful or some bullshit like that. Antags would get bowled over by a secborg just because they're tougher than a puny human. Non-antags get bowled over by a rogue secborg because they're stronger than a puny human.
Basically, being tougher and stronger than any other player mob is bad and supposedly unfair. Since when was this game concerned with being fair? Weapon-wielding traitors aren't exactly fair against anyone else who doesn't have a gun. Changelings aren't exactly fair against non-lings. Wizards aren't fair against muggles.
I could go on forever, but basically, this argument against the robocop module is just shit if it's only because they're "too strong" or "unfair" against a normal human mob. Besides which, players now aren't as shit as they were when we still had the module, so I think it should make a comeback or at least be reformed.
Secborg problem #2: "HE BEAT ME AI IS ROGUE"
Harm against humans is a big no-no for the AI and you're going to get a lot of heat for doing your job as a secborg, even if the most you can do is stun or flash people without any kind of physical harm to them. This is probably because the secborg had a stun baton and the baton by itself can sometimes pummel people even when it's on.
If this was the case, then the stun baton should be replaced with a shock prod that works more like the stungloves. No harm done in that case, nor is there potential for abuse unless you just keep prod-locking people or something. If the case wasn't that the baton was occasionally beating people and causing physical harm, then the person arguing against secborg module for this reason is a very silly person.
In any case, as long as you don't case physical harm to people as a secborg under the three standard AI laws, this complaint is only going to be a nuisance rather than a real problem or strike against the module.
Secborg problem #3: "Secborg = people who got job-banned from sec."
This is sometimes a real argument. Security is often labeled shit-curity because it has shit officers who are so incompetent that an assistant could do their job better with their own stolen gear that they took from them for being a dumbass mall cop. In some circumstances, players are so bad at security they get a job ban from them. Well, hello secborg module...
This argument is one that I can agree with. People who get job-banned from sec will probably continue to be shitcurity but as a secborg. Nothing is stopping them from being borged though and then getting it afterward either, so a job-ban for cyborg alongside will not work.
There isn't much of a counter-argument against this but if they were bad enough from sec to get a job-ban, then it's likely they'll get a borg ban for playing shitcurity as a robocop. Bad argument, but a valid one. I don't think it should count against the module in question.
Secborg problem #4: "AI should not play security"
The omni-present all-seeing AI is your master and you follow its laws. Because of this, having a secborg on its side essentially allows the AI to play security by dispatching the secborg to where-ever the AI is watching some shit go down. Example: A.I. beeps, "Joe Shitstain is getting maimed in the chapel." and Punkbuster boops, "Time to bust this punk ass." or something and then beats up the crooks.
Doing this, and by this I mean ruining an antag's fun, as an AI is considered very bad form and could possibly lead to some kind of job-ban from AI or otherwise people yelling at you in OOC. The AI can see anywhere, something which human officers cannot. Secborgs have access to anywhere it wills too, so it doesn't run into the same problems of being unable to respond without the AI opening the door for them.
I guess part of this argument is that the bad guys need to have fun too and the AI shouldn't just be able to go in and tattle-tale them or have someone on its team that can do something about it. I'm not exactly convinced by this argument, but I can see why people would side with it. Still, secborg should be an option to those who want to play it. Nothing is really stopping the AI from doing this anyway either.
Secborg problem #5: "Beepsky makes secborg unnecessary"
Do floorbots make engineer borgs unnecessary? Do medical borgs feel envy at medibots? Are digbots better than mining borgs? Why pick janiborg when floorbots are so much more efficient? The firebot gets away with being totally useless, however.
The answer to all of this is no and "because". Hence, secborgs wouldn't be inferior to or unnecessary in the presence of a securitron. Bots and borgs are completely different things. This is a stupid argument and if you argue this you are a stupid 8-)
TL;DR: Simply saying that the Security Module isn't fair/needed isn't a good argument at all.
I hope that settles things.