Goonhub
06-07-2025, 03:54 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-07-2025, 03:57 AM by TrickyWolfer. Edited 2 times in total.
Edit Reason: Triple posting holy shit
)
So far, the main problems were:
1. Welder sisyphus - Nobody wants a repetitive gameplay of welding; The current limit for fatigue pressure is still too low due to problem 2. However, there is almost no alternatives that gives true relief (permanent solution) to this problem except for unbreakable pipes
2. Too reliant on RNG (unreliable) - Too reliant on mining for getting stuff (getting things beyond bohrum is tricky, especially since the miraclium nerf). Relying science is also i assume a bit RNG because you'll have to be in the right place and time to get someone making GHC for you.
3. From problem 2: Lack of Resources. Especially exacerbated in Toxins, Engineers would have to have a LOT of materials to handle the burn, and while this could possibly balance the burn, due to the amount of pipe segment needs to be reinforced, it might be way more expensive compared to the other engines i.e. Nuclear and Singularity (to even reach max power, both engine doesn't seem to need ultra rare materials i.e. starstone to function properly in a high-engineering gameplay and make numbers go big)
In short, the current state of atmos fatigue management is unreliable and possibly time-consuming due to waiting for relying on 2 different wings. TEG is also one of the more expensive engines to start, as it requires engineer's knowledge in multi-department e.g. Matsci, Chemistry, Wiring, Atmos.
The demands from engineering and toxins is to make the solve reliable and hopefully eliminate the welding sisyphus gameplay.
The solves presented so far were as follows, as well as the problems tackled:
1. Unbreakable HPD obtainable by cargo; Make it expensive so that it scales with competency of QM + engineers making early money. This solves:
- Problem 1: Unbreakable means no more welding sisyphus at certain point
- Problem 2: Reliable obtaining method from cargo meant we just need to rely on cargo (no RNG)
Balancing: The knowledge of Engineering and Cargo in rounds, the high price meant that it's nigh impossible to get it at round start. Toxins could benefit at mid-round to start doing bombs.
2. External pipe managers (i.e. MechComp, Nanite gas, Shield system), something that could manage your pipes while you're away.
- Problem 1: Still gives a chance of breaking, however significantly less tedious in repairing due to more system managing it for you
- Problem 2: Variable, but if the way of obtaining is pretty straightforward, then this might be also a very simple work w/o overreliance on RNG (i.e. just need to fab it in MechComp)
Balancing: Knowledge of MechComp by engineers and maybe MatSci, but that would meant there's still Mining reliance, however slightly more tolerated due to the wide variety of options. Toxins would probably suffer due to need of access engineering for MechComp items.
3. Pipe behaviour changes:
a. Make pipes burst from rapid temperature/pressure change: This effectively rewards engineers who plays it safe while also punishing engineers who wants to push the system to the limit. Problem 1 might be eliminated completely if the engineer wants to keep it stable as well as problem 2, however those problems will return once the engineers try to push higher than a certain boundary (or even an unexpected mix failure).
b. Punishing manifold abuse: Punishes engineers who tries to chain unbreakable segments of pipes. This scales with engineer knowledge but also reward people who wants to trade off risk and reward by chaining breakable pipes. Problem 1 ight return regardless, problem 2 might be eliminated
c. Chemically-infused pipes: Gives pipes interesting properties depending on the material/chemical it is plated with. Assuming the engineers played it right, it could eliminate problem 1. However, due to the nature of obtaining chems and materials, it would exacerbate problem 2 (except for toxins who might have a VIP track to chem room)
d. Stackable Reinforcement: It seems to be one of the more popular choice, as the current system we have is very limiting. It scales well with resource and could trade-off RNG based gameplay for "amount of things I could get". It could eliminate the reliance of 1 of the wings if the cards were played properly.
Also can be combined with unlimited pipe hardening idea by Cringe. Toxins might benefit a lot since they could get it from fabs or make their own chems, as well as engineering just needing to stack materials.
4. Atmospheric Changes:
a. A gas with higher heat capacity: Assuming MolitzB is really unreliable due to the nature of RNG-based, a gas with a better way of obtaining it might reduce problem 2. Problem 1 might return (and will return), only delayed. Toxins... would probably suffer as same as engineering.
===============================================
All in all, what I just realize and missed from all these discussion is that compared to other engines, TEG seems to be really high-maintenance when it comes to retaining power.
In singularity, once you could just start the setup and feeder, you're limited with materials to continue feeding it or add more arrays to capture the energy
In Nuclear, you are limited by materials to get more heat output from the reactor. Gas is almost negligible and only suffer in energy after a really long while.
In Geothermal, you chase down a hotspot, stack it, and dig underground. Your limitation is time and access to mining.
All of these methods meant that you can stop at anytime you want and decide to just quit to the bar. TEG however, does not give you such luxury (hence the perceived Welding Sisyphus). A singulo reaching certain size doesn't suffer in output once you ran out of clowns to feed, a nuclear doesn't suffer much as well since you can just leave a nuclear engine at anytime and the power generation only really slowly goes down due to fuel depletion. Geothermal? Just exit the water lol.
TEG? Once you set up the entire thing, suddenly, there's gajillions of leaks you have to tend to. The reaction is also almost instantaneous due to scaling leak quickly purging the pipes. 3 minutes off because sec was asking where the clown went? Too bad, it went from TW down to MW immediately because all of the plasma in the atmos pipes gone to air because of a single leak you didn't attend.
Now the thing is, is there a way to tackle this? It's probably something larger than the scope of this thread, but my money's on getting external pipe managers, stackable pipe reinforcements, and unbreakable HPD so it still gives some breathing room and able to stop anytime.
1. Welder sisyphus - Nobody wants a repetitive gameplay of welding; The current limit for fatigue pressure is still too low due to problem 2. However, there is almost no alternatives that gives true relief (permanent solution) to this problem except for unbreakable pipes
2. Too reliant on RNG (unreliable) - Too reliant on mining for getting stuff (getting things beyond bohrum is tricky, especially since the miraclium nerf). Relying science is also i assume a bit RNG because you'll have to be in the right place and time to get someone making GHC for you.
3. From problem 2: Lack of Resources. Especially exacerbated in Toxins, Engineers would have to have a LOT of materials to handle the burn, and while this could possibly balance the burn, due to the amount of pipe segment needs to be reinforced, it might be way more expensive compared to the other engines i.e. Nuclear and Singularity (to even reach max power, both engine doesn't seem to need ultra rare materials i.e. starstone to function properly in a high-engineering gameplay and make numbers go big)
In short, the current state of atmos fatigue management is unreliable and possibly time-consuming due to waiting for relying on 2 different wings. TEG is also one of the more expensive engines to start, as it requires engineer's knowledge in multi-department e.g. Matsci, Chemistry, Wiring, Atmos.
The demands from engineering and toxins is to make the solve reliable and hopefully eliminate the welding sisyphus gameplay.
The solves presented so far were as follows, as well as the problems tackled:
1. Unbreakable HPD obtainable by cargo; Make it expensive so that it scales with competency of QM + engineers making early money. This solves:
- Problem 1: Unbreakable means no more welding sisyphus at certain point
- Problem 2: Reliable obtaining method from cargo meant we just need to rely on cargo (no RNG)
Balancing: The knowledge of Engineering and Cargo in rounds, the high price meant that it's nigh impossible to get it at round start. Toxins could benefit at mid-round to start doing bombs.
2. External pipe managers (i.e. MechComp, Nanite gas, Shield system), something that could manage your pipes while you're away.
- Problem 1: Still gives a chance of breaking, however significantly less tedious in repairing due to more system managing it for you
- Problem 2: Variable, but if the way of obtaining is pretty straightforward, then this might be also a very simple work w/o overreliance on RNG (i.e. just need to fab it in MechComp)
Balancing: Knowledge of MechComp by engineers and maybe MatSci, but that would meant there's still Mining reliance, however slightly more tolerated due to the wide variety of options. Toxins would probably suffer due to need of access engineering for MechComp items.
3. Pipe behaviour changes:
a. Make pipes burst from rapid temperature/pressure change: This effectively rewards engineers who plays it safe while also punishing engineers who wants to push the system to the limit. Problem 1 might be eliminated completely if the engineer wants to keep it stable as well as problem 2, however those problems will return once the engineers try to push higher than a certain boundary (or even an unexpected mix failure).
b. Punishing manifold abuse: Punishes engineers who tries to chain unbreakable segments of pipes. This scales with engineer knowledge but also reward people who wants to trade off risk and reward by chaining breakable pipes. Problem 1 ight return regardless, problem 2 might be eliminated
c. Chemically-infused pipes: Gives pipes interesting properties depending on the material/chemical it is plated with. Assuming the engineers played it right, it could eliminate problem 1. However, due to the nature of obtaining chems and materials, it would exacerbate problem 2 (except for toxins who might have a VIP track to chem room)
d. Stackable Reinforcement: It seems to be one of the more popular choice, as the current system we have is very limiting. It scales well with resource and could trade-off RNG based gameplay for "amount of things I could get". It could eliminate the reliance of 1 of the wings if the cards were played properly.
Also can be combined with unlimited pipe hardening idea by Cringe. Toxins might benefit a lot since they could get it from fabs or make their own chems, as well as engineering just needing to stack materials.
4. Atmospheric Changes:
a. A gas with higher heat capacity: Assuming MolitzB is really unreliable due to the nature of RNG-based, a gas with a better way of obtaining it might reduce problem 2. Problem 1 might return (and will return), only delayed. Toxins... would probably suffer as same as engineering.
===============================================
All in all, what I just realize and missed from all these discussion is that compared to other engines, TEG seems to be really high-maintenance when it comes to retaining power.
In singularity, once you could just start the setup and feeder, you're limited with materials to continue feeding it or add more arrays to capture the energy
In Nuclear, you are limited by materials to get more heat output from the reactor. Gas is almost negligible and only suffer in energy after a really long while.
In Geothermal, you chase down a hotspot, stack it, and dig underground. Your limitation is time and access to mining.
All of these methods meant that you can stop at anytime you want and decide to just quit to the bar. TEG however, does not give you such luxury (hence the perceived Welding Sisyphus). A singulo reaching certain size doesn't suffer in output once you ran out of clowns to feed, a nuclear doesn't suffer much as well since you can just leave a nuclear engine at anytime and the power generation only really slowly goes down due to fuel depletion. Geothermal? Just exit the water lol.
TEG? Once you set up the entire thing, suddenly, there's gajillions of leaks you have to tend to. The reaction is also almost instantaneous due to scaling leak quickly purging the pipes. 3 minutes off because sec was asking where the clown went? Too bad, it went from TW down to MW immediately because all of the plasma in the atmos pipes gone to air because of a single leak you didn't attend.
Now the thing is, is there a way to tackle this? It's probably something larger than the scope of this thread, but my money's on getting external pipe managers, stackable pipe reinforcements, and unbreakable HPD so it still gives some breathing room and able to stop anytime.