Goonhub
06-01-2025, 08:41 AM
I believe the manifold change was the correct decision; it wasn't an intended feature, and things like pipeburning for canbombs and the TEG were never designed with that possibility in mind.
Simply put, I have dabbled pretty deeply in all the main power production methods that the station offers, aside from the reactor. By far, pipeburns with unbreakable pipes were the easiest and least resource-intensive way to achieve both lower high-end and high-end power and far-reaching effects. It is extremely time-efficient, and although some things you could get from other departments will help, it is not needed. I.E we have farts at home.
I would also like to clarify and state that this does not just impact the TEG and toxins, but also the reactor. Managing pressure and the fact that you want more gas, so more thermal mass can pass through the turbine, with pressure being your limiter for that one.
pipe burns, especially good ones, are limited by the pipe pressure limits, especially later on, even with all of the intended pressure increase methods.
I do think the manifold method was way too cost-efficient, and know-how alone should not be the only thing holding you back from constantly maxing out or even approaching maximum limits.
Despite the claims, singularities, even plenty of them, even with 22k plasma, which is as low as you are getting without a TEG, do not reach those power levels without a great resource cost. Both to get all the plasma required (which is also slowly consumed) for even a single tank, etc. This has all been said before, though, and not what I mainly want to say. I just want to outline all this and make it clear that although I am about to say the TEG needs a lot to feel better, from QoL to reasonable support for higher end, that doesn't just equate to sitting somewhere clicking pipes for over an hour. I don't want that to be the experience anyone faces.
It was outperforming everything in time and resource efficiency, and honestly, I think the reactor probably could have done the same by abusing the same inability to bust. I just don't think anyone had bothered with it yet that I had seen.
Personally, I just really don't want to see this discussion be "grrr this change sucked and this is why" and instead solutions and ideas we can all come together and be happy with because I don't think we all want the system to be jank unbustable pipes when it could be something cool as fuck.
Personally, if something works to get around pressure, I want people to be like
"holy shit that's clever"
vs ahh it's just...this pipe doesn't burst so use this one.
(which isn't to say there isn't more to the higher ends of it, or pushing a burn but managing the pressure to not burst the pipes? let's not kid ourselves, that is exactly what this is when manifolds are in play and being used, you just stop caring about it entirely, it becomes solved aside from keeping pressure high on input and low on output.)
Anyway, out of that preamble
I think there are a few styles of solutions we could do without, just trivializing and removing the pressure threat that the pipes pose.
We could have a passive management system, a sort of device that could be placed and automatically manage the pipes for you, that would work well with the current wrench-smack system Leah implemented, where it's just some non-player machine that you feed resources to that manages this aspect for you. It could be a little robot that actively goes around and does it, a pipe shield system that uses science junk to help the pipes manage the pressure with an energy cost of some sort, that costs more energy related to the pressure difference between the pressure of the atmosphere and the contents of the pipe itself.
Or we could have/ focus on upgrades that offer more permanent solutions, but I do think it would be nice to see some sort of "cost sink" of sorts, as long as it does not require constant management, especially if well executed.
I would like the TEG itself to focus more on well...the thermo electric effect personally, so better ways to interact with the cold loop as well, and for other atmospheric science-related things like if there were pipes you could make that interacted with the cryostlane reaction like the blower does (and is sadly really bad at actually helping the TEG and way to resource intensive for its help and how it gets outscaled by everything else happening and ends up being a drop in the bucket in the end)
Chemically enhanced pipes could be interesting, though, like a pipe with liquid dark matter/ sorium infusions to force the pressure to either go up or down in areas.
The specifics exactly don't matter, but some sort of system to let us manage these things, even with help, would be nice. Honestly, I love wolfys points on cargo-related stuff as well because there is a feedback loop there, and I LOVE having potential buyable upgrades like the extreme pressurization device, for example, which is very often overlooked, and more upgrades that could be integrated over time as funds change could be a very cool thing.
The main thing is we need something manageable that isn't going to feel tedious and repetitive and be a pain point, high or low levels of power. I think it's good to have a system that can get wild and potentially reach power levels of stars. That is the kind of wild chicanery that SS13 is known for, or at least Goonstation. I think these events should be on the rarer end and require great effort, though. Potentially from multiple departments/ groups on the station through collaboration. If they exist or not, I just don't want it to be some fun, optimized-out thing where someone is sitting there clicking the same thing or things over and over again. In my ideal, I see things like this being something you form a rallying cry for and through hard cooperative work its something big to RP around and will often not work out because of how rounds work with antagonists and all that but can work and is something people don't need to squat over and are encouraged to go run out and RP with people to get the resources to do it.
Which means ideally we want and need a system that has some form of passive management where an upfront resource cost gives you time to do that. Either through stuff you can buy to do it better, maybe a jank temp fix that only works for a certain amount of time, even while you work on a permanent one.
There are always a lot of directions that maintainers could go in, and I am not going to presume to know the perfect balance between what is efficient for their time and effort and what is a good solution.
All I can say for certain is there are some clear pain points already underlined by myself and others, and that I would like more stuff that lets us tinker with these things dynamically, and I am always happy to see more reasons for cargo to have people buying upgrades. Science has always felt tough to rely on, if for no other reason, because at the very least, the fact it there are so many jobs often means you may not even have someone willing to work in chemistry and make what you want, so I lean on cargo being potentially cooler with help from science having some cool ways they can help and would work off of already built across department ideas. Or maybe special gear you can order that can also be further enhanced by science chemistry, like the blowers.
Last idea because I am trying not to make this huge and more verbose, but directed nanites or nanites in general in the blowers...could be a neat sort of idea for something that fixes the pipes for you while away, that could be more resource intensive. Or needing to buy a device that requires them as fuel that you can also buy, but science/ the chef, etc, could help do at a more reasonable price in time/ money.
Simply put, I have dabbled pretty deeply in all the main power production methods that the station offers, aside from the reactor. By far, pipeburns with unbreakable pipes were the easiest and least resource-intensive way to achieve both lower high-end and high-end power and far-reaching effects. It is extremely time-efficient, and although some things you could get from other departments will help, it is not needed. I.E we have farts at home.
I would also like to clarify and state that this does not just impact the TEG and toxins, but also the reactor. Managing pressure and the fact that you want more gas, so more thermal mass can pass through the turbine, with pressure being your limiter for that one.
pipe burns, especially good ones, are limited by the pipe pressure limits, especially later on, even with all of the intended pressure increase methods.
I do think the manifold method was way too cost-efficient, and know-how alone should not be the only thing holding you back from constantly maxing out or even approaching maximum limits.
Despite the claims, singularities, even plenty of them, even with 22k plasma, which is as low as you are getting without a TEG, do not reach those power levels without a great resource cost. Both to get all the plasma required (which is also slowly consumed) for even a single tank, etc. This has all been said before, though, and not what I mainly want to say. I just want to outline all this and make it clear that although I am about to say the TEG needs a lot to feel better, from QoL to reasonable support for higher end, that doesn't just equate to sitting somewhere clicking pipes for over an hour. I don't want that to be the experience anyone faces.
It was outperforming everything in time and resource efficiency, and honestly, I think the reactor probably could have done the same by abusing the same inability to bust. I just don't think anyone had bothered with it yet that I had seen.
Personally, I just really don't want to see this discussion be "grrr this change sucked and this is why" and instead solutions and ideas we can all come together and be happy with because I don't think we all want the system to be jank unbustable pipes when it could be something cool as fuck.
Personally, if something works to get around pressure, I want people to be like
"holy shit that's clever"
vs ahh it's just...this pipe doesn't burst so use this one.
(which isn't to say there isn't more to the higher ends of it, or pushing a burn but managing the pressure to not burst the pipes? let's not kid ourselves, that is exactly what this is when manifolds are in play and being used, you just stop caring about it entirely, it becomes solved aside from keeping pressure high on input and low on output.)
Anyway, out of that preamble
I think there are a few styles of solutions we could do without, just trivializing and removing the pressure threat that the pipes pose.
We could have a passive management system, a sort of device that could be placed and automatically manage the pipes for you, that would work well with the current wrench-smack system Leah implemented, where it's just some non-player machine that you feed resources to that manages this aspect for you. It could be a little robot that actively goes around and does it, a pipe shield system that uses science junk to help the pipes manage the pressure with an energy cost of some sort, that costs more energy related to the pressure difference between the pressure of the atmosphere and the contents of the pipe itself.
Or we could have/ focus on upgrades that offer more permanent solutions, but I do think it would be nice to see some sort of "cost sink" of sorts, as long as it does not require constant management, especially if well executed.
I would like the TEG itself to focus more on well...the thermo electric effect personally, so better ways to interact with the cold loop as well, and for other atmospheric science-related things like if there were pipes you could make that interacted with the cryostlane reaction like the blower does (and is sadly really bad at actually helping the TEG and way to resource intensive for its help and how it gets outscaled by everything else happening and ends up being a drop in the bucket in the end)
Chemically enhanced pipes could be interesting, though, like a pipe with liquid dark matter/ sorium infusions to force the pressure to either go up or down in areas.
The specifics exactly don't matter, but some sort of system to let us manage these things, even with help, would be nice. Honestly, I love wolfys points on cargo-related stuff as well because there is a feedback loop there, and I LOVE having potential buyable upgrades like the extreme pressurization device, for example, which is very often overlooked, and more upgrades that could be integrated over time as funds change could be a very cool thing.
The main thing is we need something manageable that isn't going to feel tedious and repetitive and be a pain point, high or low levels of power. I think it's good to have a system that can get wild and potentially reach power levels of stars. That is the kind of wild chicanery that SS13 is known for, or at least Goonstation. I think these events should be on the rarer end and require great effort, though. Potentially from multiple departments/ groups on the station through collaboration. If they exist or not, I just don't want it to be some fun, optimized-out thing where someone is sitting there clicking the same thing or things over and over again. In my ideal, I see things like this being something you form a rallying cry for and through hard cooperative work its something big to RP around and will often not work out because of how rounds work with antagonists and all that but can work and is something people don't need to squat over and are encouraged to go run out and RP with people to get the resources to do it.
Which means ideally we want and need a system that has some form of passive management where an upfront resource cost gives you time to do that. Either through stuff you can buy to do it better, maybe a jank temp fix that only works for a certain amount of time, even while you work on a permanent one.
There are always a lot of directions that maintainers could go in, and I am not going to presume to know the perfect balance between what is efficient for their time and effort and what is a good solution.
All I can say for certain is there are some clear pain points already underlined by myself and others, and that I would like more stuff that lets us tinker with these things dynamically, and I am always happy to see more reasons for cargo to have people buying upgrades. Science has always felt tough to rely on, if for no other reason, because at the very least, the fact it there are so many jobs often means you may not even have someone willing to work in chemistry and make what you want, so I lean on cargo being potentially cooler with help from science having some cool ways they can help and would work off of already built across department ideas. Or maybe special gear you can order that can also be further enhanced by science chemistry, like the blowers.
Last idea because I am trying not to make this huge and more verbose, but directed nanites or nanites in general in the blowers...could be a neat sort of idea for something that fixes the pipes for you while away, that could be more resource intensive. Or needing to buy a device that requires them as fuel that you can also buy, but science/ the chef, etc, could help do at a more reasonable price in time/ money.