Goonhub
09-30-2023, 07:50 PM
Ta for the in-depth reply, it took a while to write this up and everything you've said is reasonable. I've been pondering improvements for a while now so figured perhaps these might be good ideas to bounce off of:
Pretty much my thoughts on the topic. As I said, I really, really like how it feels to make acetone/phenol - disregarding the split output.
Honestly, I think you could get away with making the advanced reagent ratios MUCH smaller for your standard medchems. like 0.1u, doubling down on the effort/reward for stronger chems.
I think you're looking at it the wrong way - In fact, if I were to say there was something people grumble right now, it's oil. I don't think it's super engaging to create oil ahead of time, as it makes you dip your toes in new chemistry purely so you can return to old chemistry (after a new-chemistry tedium step). If I need oil NOW. I just make a fuckton of hot oil. it's fast enough.
Making a bottle of 50u phenol that i'll occasionally have to pour 10u into a condenser? That's an easier sell.
Hear me out:
Make oil's ratio always 1-1. Make the reaction rate possibly scale up even further. Now, if it's in a condenser, it's functionally an analog 'speed dial'. If you run your oil hot, all your reactants down-chain start disappearing really quickly and you risk one of your condensers running out of reactants & gumming up the works.
The knock on effects, just from this would be:
- Players can have room-temperature oil reactions for slower, lower-effort rounds.
- When you give strong chemicals the higher ratio of 'complex reactant like acetone', it's going to be harder to keep your condenser chains topped up at high speeds.
- Players can now determine *exactly* how many reagents of each type are needed. This is something I, and others, like doing (chemgroups)
- There's cool balance avenues when you can adjust reacton rate. IE, "This reaction only works in the presence of 50+ units of water" gives less leeway for the state of a condenser, when automated.
I posited a fractional distillation funnel in the other thread. I still think it's a good idea.
I think making the condensers the thing you manage is a much cooler idea FWIW. Chemists have reverse-engineered every chemistry recipe into their underlying ratios, we saw this with chemgroups...
Get a volumetric burette in here so that you can have custom drip-rates, you'll be seeing real machinations. Newbie chemists slosh everything into a beaker. Intermediate chemists slap it all into some condensers-
Nerds decompose their target chemical into the exact ratios of precursors, and make huge abominations... or hyper-optimized setups where they're managing large branching recipes in only 2 condensers! As for balance, it's easy enough to balance this stuff by making seperate parts of reaction chains react.
Perhaps it's a difference in vision. I much prefer the part where I'm passively monitoring and maintaining condensers, each making things I *know* I want. Not the part where I'm essentially making more than I need of every chemical *just in case i need it*. because every damn time I do the latter, a whole lot goes to waste, or runs barely short whenever I need it.
Hopefully there's some ideas you think are cool in there 8)
(09-29-2023, 05:20 AM)Flaborized Wrote:Quote:precursors...could probably just have ratios adjusted to be a bit less demanding in this way.
Pretty much my thoughts on the topic. As I said, I really, really like how it feels to make acetone/phenol - disregarding the split output.
Honestly, I think you could get away with making the advanced reagent ratios MUCH smaller for your standard medchems. like 0.1u, doubling down on the effort/reward for stronger chems.
(09-29-2023, 05:20 AM)Flaborized Wrote:Quote:oil is unreliable in its output volumeI don't think there'd be a lot of reasons to make unique setups otherwise, though perhaps it'd be good if it could be signaled to players "this is something you should probably be mixing even if you don't need it right this second" and encourage that kind of thinking ahead stuff.
I think you're looking at it the wrong way - In fact, if I were to say there was something people grumble right now, it's oil. I don't think it's super engaging to create oil ahead of time, as it makes you dip your toes in new chemistry purely so you can return to old chemistry (after a new-chemistry tedium step). If I need oil NOW. I just make a fuckton of hot oil. it's fast enough.
Making a bottle of 50u phenol that i'll occasionally have to pour 10u into a condenser? That's an easier sell.
Hear me out:
Make oil's ratio always 1-1. Make the reaction rate possibly scale up even further. Now, if it's in a condenser, it's functionally an analog 'speed dial'. If you run your oil hot, all your reactants down-chain start disappearing really quickly and you risk one of your condensers running out of reactants & gumming up the works.
The knock on effects, just from this would be:
- Players can have room-temperature oil reactions for slower, lower-effort rounds.
- When you give strong chemicals the higher ratio of 'complex reactant like acetone', it's going to be harder to keep your condenser chains topped up at high speeds.
- Players can now determine *exactly* how many reagents of each type are needed. This is something I, and others, like doing (chemgroups)
- There's cool balance avenues when you can adjust reacton rate. IE, "This reaction only works in the presence of 50+ units of water" gives less leeway for the state of a condenser, when automated.
(09-29-2023, 05:20 AM)Flaborized Wrote:Quote:split outputs
Some kinda way to separate them could be neat, idk. Maybe a filter or a centrifuge or something for this,
I posited a fractional distillation funnel in the other thread. I still think it's a good idea.
(09-29-2023, 05:20 AM)Flaborized Wrote:Quote:balancing chains
Yep this is pretty much how it's supposed to be, There's some *degree* of automation with condensers, but you're still very much meant to be actively present and manually interacting with the vessels.
I think making the condensers the thing you manage is a much cooler idea FWIW. Chemists have reverse-engineered every chemistry recipe into their underlying ratios, we saw this with chemgroups...
Get a volumetric burette in here so that you can have custom drip-rates, you'll be seeing real machinations. Newbie chemists slosh everything into a beaker. Intermediate chemists slap it all into some condensers-
Nerds decompose their target chemical into the exact ratios of precursors, and make huge abominations... or hyper-optimized setups where they're managing large branching recipes in only 2 condensers! As for balance, it's easy enough to balance this stuff by making seperate parts of reaction chains react.
Perhaps it's a difference in vision. I much prefer the part where I'm passively monitoring and maintaining condensers, each making things I *know* I want. Not the part where I'm essentially making more than I need of every chemical *just in case i need it*. because every damn time I do the latter, a whole lot goes to waste, or runs barely short whenever I need it.
Hopefully there's some ideas you think are cool in there 8)