Goonhub
09-29-2023, 05:20 AM
It really has been about a month ahah, time really happens 
Non-specific to anything in this thread, I'd like to say that I still intend to go in and expand the rework more and branch it out to other interesting chems (there's lots of ideas Leah and I didn't end up using for these that would still be really cool) but also I've been taking a bit of a tolerance break from it since I worked on it heavily for a few months. But it's still a thing I want to work on and I see lots of room to expand on it. Anyways, my some of my thoughts on the critiques here:
This is a good idea I think, though I wouldn't want it to work exactly the same way adding heat does if we add a machine (ie: I don't want to add a bunsen 'cooler'), something more distinct and specific would be **cool**.
I don't see this as much of an issue personally, part of the dynamic of getting real, tangible benefits from another department is that you don't get those benefits if the department doesn't give them to you. And condensers/barrels/bunsen burners aren't strictly *necessary* to do anything at the moment, just helpful in organizational ways.
The instantaneous of the reactions weren't really the issue I wanted to tackle, it was more that I didn't like that the reactions were just like, pressing a bunch of buttons over and over to get theoretically infinite amounts. I wanted the reactions to instead be easy to make the regular old way, but also allow you to do more complicated stuff that takes less clicks to make lots and lots of product (in a barrel). These are particularly bulk-y chems to produce, and they have a stronger variant, so I tried to give them a recipe that's *kinda* complicated, but isn't *that* hard and not really dangerous in any way. Meanwhile the changes to the higher "tier" meds (pent and synthflesh) are both more involved and specific and have some way to be dangerous to the mixer. I also just personally like the weird reaction types they have, even if sulfadiazine's in particular doesn't make much sense
Yeah this is true and fair and an issue with the rework atm, the scope of it was somewhat limited (since you have to work on big projects like this in smaller chunks so you actually get things done) but as a byproduct of that reagents that take precursors that weren't changed aren't necessarily balanced to how useful they are. The solution imo is going through them and redesigning them to work with the rework, epi and meth in particular are easy candidates for more complexity but I think more obscure chems that don't *need* huge code blocks in on_reaction() but also need oil/diethlyamine/whatever could probably just have ratios adjusted to be a bit less demanding in this way.
Oil is something that I envisioned people making independently of what they actually needed oil for at the time. What I mean is, before you even *want* to use oil in the chemlab, you start making oil and putting it into storage somewhere just so you have it when you need it. I like what I've seen from the recipe a lot actually, since I've seen people building weird unique setups with condensers and barrels and whatnot. (Even people scraping oil stains from the Oshan arrivals subs which I think is Good) I don't think there'd be a lot of reasons to make unique setups otherwise, though perhaps it'd be good if it could be signaled to players "this is something you should probably be mixing even if you don't need it right this second" and encourage that kind of thinking ahead stuff.
Some kinda way to separate them could be neat, idk. Maybe a filter or a centrifuge or something for this, not exactly sure a good way to do it but I like the idea of a recipe that's unwieldy without tools (though still very much possible) but then you use your specialized nerd chemical equipment and have an easier time with it. And then when there's reactions that use *both* you wouldn't even need the tool if you thought ahead and realized that... which would again be neat.
Yep this is pretty much how it's supposed to be, There's some *degree* of automation with condensers, but you're still very much meant to be actively present and manually interacting with the vessels. It could be cool maybe though to let you output condensers into multiple containers and then split the product evenly between connected ones (maybe with a cap of like 3 or something) so you could still manipulate ratios in this way...
We avoided adding a purity system on purpose since there's not *actually* really a need for it when producing medical chems and it adds a lot of complexity to displaying chemicals to people and figuring out how different quality chems mix together and stuff like that. Like, but "not really a need for it" I mean that something like styptic powder is so good at healing brute damage that 'styptic powder +1' isn't really necessary. I'd rather have additional harder to make chems (ie: synthflesh) instead, more interesting to me.
I'm also *alright* with chemistry being a bit more difficult to get into than it was, since it's just more difficult in general and that comes with that. I'd rather there be better in-game documentation or help than make the system simpler for the sake of making it easier to get into. Though yeah it could probably be a little bit easier to ease yourself into potentially... but the new recipes aren't actually *that* complicated when you get down to it I feel, though I also designed lots of them so idk that might just be my perspective as well.
Non-specific to anything in this thread, I'd like to say that I still intend to go in and expand the rework more and branch it out to other interesting chems (there's lots of ideas Leah and I didn't end up using for these that would still be really cool) but also I've been taking a bit of a tolerance break from it since I worked on it heavily for a few months. But it's still a thing I want to work on and I see lots of room to expand on it. Anyways, my some of my thoughts on the critiques here:Quote:Heat retention on reaction, it just makes hot reactions need less heating? I can automate heating now. I can't automate cooling reliably. Gimme a way to cool stuff. And don't go telling me to put cryo in beaker #4! I'm already bouncing back and forth on 3 other condensers!
This is a good idea I think, though I wouldn't want it to work exactly the same way adding heat does if we add a machine (ie: I don't want to add a bunsen 'cooler'), something more distinct and specific would be **cool**.
Quote:Niche ore requirements - Oh. there are no miners. Or they aren't working. What am I gonna do, *their job*? At least the main consumers of fancy ore (robotics) can actually go mining when they want stuff. I don't mind putting in extra chemistry effort to work around this requirement!
I don't see this as much of an issue personally, part of the dynamic of getting real, tangible benefits from another department is that you don't get those benefits if the department doesn't give them to you. And condensers/barrels/bunsen burners aren't strictly *necessary* to do anything at the moment, just helpful in organizational ways.
Quote:Weird gimmicks for Sulfazine/Styptic - I dont get it. OK, the consensus was to stop making it instantly at the dispenser. Why not just make it a standard slow reaction? Sulfazine's is just weird, and it makes pouring the reaction mix act oddly. Styptics' is cool but who's making small batches of styptic? These are boring chems that can have boring syntheses, surely?
The instantaneous of the reactions weren't really the issue I wanted to tackle, it was more that I didn't like that the reactions were just like, pressing a bunch of buttons over and over to get theoretically infinite amounts. I wanted the reactions to instead be easy to make the regular old way, but also allow you to do more complicated stuff that takes less clicks to make lots and lots of product (in a barrel). These are particularly bulk-y chems to produce, and they have a stronger variant, so I tried to give them a recipe that's *kinda* complicated, but isn't *that* hard and not really dangerous in any way. Meanwhile the changes to the higher "tier" meds (pent and synthflesh) are both more involved and specific and have some way to be dangerous to the mixer. I also just personally like the weird reaction types they have, even if sulfadiazine's in particular doesn't make much sense
Quote:Basically every precursor requires a lot more time/effort/attention/setup, and they are used in lots of boring chemicals. It's hard to justify putting the effort into anything but the most powerful chemicals now. Would you rather make Epinephrine or Meth?
Yeah this is true and fair and an issue with the rework atm, the scope of it was somewhat limited (since you have to work on big projects like this in smaller chunks so you actually get things done) but as a byproduct of that reagents that take precursors that weren't changed aren't necessarily balanced to how useful they are. The solution imo is going through them and redesigning them to work with the rework, epi and meth in particular are easy candidates for more complexity but I think more obscure chems that don't *need* huge code blocks in on_reaction() but also need oil/diethlyamine/whatever could probably just have ratios adjusted to be a bit less demanding in this way.
Quote:Unreliable output volumes for things like oil. I don't see why the reduced output is even necessary. It's not stopping me making MORE oil - I can easily pour in hundreds of units of fuel. All it does is make balancing reactions annoying/unreliable. So, now I have to eyeball everything I make... Or, ignore condensers and wait for all my oil to be made, then measure out everything manually. So it's the same as before but with a boring step.
Oil is something that I envisioned people making independently of what they actually needed oil for at the time. What I mean is, before you even *want* to use oil in the chemlab, you start making oil and putting it into storage somewhere just so you have it when you need it. I like what I've seen from the recipe a lot actually, since I've seen people building weird unique setups with condensers and barrels and whatnot. (Even people scraping oil stains from the Oshan arrivals subs which I think is Good) I don't think there'd be a lot of reasons to make unique setups otherwise, though perhaps it'd be good if it could be signaled to players "this is something you should probably be mixing even if you don't need it right this second" and encourage that kind of thinking ahead stuff.
Quote:Split reactions for Acetone/phenol, it's an interesting idea. However, all it really means is that I have to cram a beaker in a chemmaster every time i make it. I can't use any of the new tools to automate it! And it's made with Boring Oil I Need To Manually Measure!
Some kinda way to separate them could be neat, idk. Maybe a filter or a centrifuge or something for this, not exactly sure a good way to do it but I like the idea of a recipe that's unwieldy without tools (though still very much possible) but then you use your specialized nerd chemical equipment and have an easier time with it. And then when there's reactions that use *both* you wouldn't even need the tool if you thought ahead and realized that... which would again be neat.
Quote:No way to balance uneven reaction chains - if 1 reaction makes 3u/tick, and something down the line makes 1u/tick, there is no way to build a chain of equipment that stops a condenser overflowing. I can at best, make 3 seperate reaction vessels.
Yep this is pretty much how it's supposed to be, There's some *degree* of automation with condensers, but you're still very much meant to be actively present and manually interacting with the vessels. It could be cool maybe though to let you output condensers into multiple containers and then split the product evenly between connected ones (maybe with a cap of like 3 or something) so you could still manipulate ratios in this way...
Quote:As someone who has tried chemistry old a few times and chemistry new ONCE.
I do like the multiplue possiblities... but... OH MY LORD ITS SO COMPLEX!
We need a way to "ease in" new chemists, cause right now... it's really really difficult.
This is why I recommend looking at Botany that's "easy to learn, hard to master."
A standard botanist will grow crops fine, a decent one will know how to get mutant traces, the master botanist is always splicing mutations/adding chemicals/making the best dank weed possible.
This is what I would rather see with chemistry. With if you want to make meth.. yea it's not that hard.. but to be the HEISENBERG of your lab. You gotta mix , cook and burn all manually to get the purist of meth with a strong potency.
Also it will make chemistry more fun if you can make healing chems be more potent then the standard refills, gives the pharmacy more reason to be used too.
Though this idea might constitute another rework and... LETS NOT! But i think thats the idea route for chemistry (and most departments that can develop things)
We avoided adding a purity system on purpose since there's not *actually* really a need for it when producing medical chems and it adds a lot of complexity to displaying chemicals to people and figuring out how different quality chems mix together and stuff like that. Like, but "not really a need for it" I mean that something like styptic powder is so good at healing brute damage that 'styptic powder +1' isn't really necessary. I'd rather have additional harder to make chems (ie: synthflesh) instead, more interesting to me.
I'm also *alright* with chemistry being a bit more difficult to get into than it was, since it's just more difficult in general and that comes with that. I'd rather there be better in-game documentation or help than make the system simpler for the sake of making it easier to get into. Though yeah it could probably be a little bit easier to ease yourself into potentially... but the new recipes aren't actually *that* complicated when you get down to it I feel, though I also designed lots of them so idk that might just be my perspective as well.