Goonhub
11-22-2022, 11:16 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-22-2022, 12:53 PM by CalliopeSoups. Edited 4 times in total.)
I will agree that sleeper agents are not engaging enough to warrant killing antagonists earlier than you typically would, and from the last time I asked about it it seems the latejoin antag system is a mess, but I keep seeing people say this and that about the system and nobody's shown me numbers or code so feel free if you can, I'm still not sure if it actually has higher odds for dead antags or if it's round time based. In response to kotlol, respawning can indeed get you a latejoin antag.
Security desperately needs one, re-written and central space law guide.
In terms of current security culture I feel it's more complex than simply too lax or too hard as of late. Here's an example, I feel a form of being too hard on antags lately has been what I'll call spectator syndrome. Take this scenario. You get an alert and rush with three other officers to the scene, there has not been violence yet. You see two people speaking with the antagonist and it seems calm. Instead of focusing attention elsewhere, you stay with the officers you brought and watch. You don't say anything, just stand still and watch, and suddenly there's about four officers standing still and watching while interaction happens. How do this feel to you? To me as the antagonist, that feels like most of security silently waiting for action while backing me into a corner so they can win. Because of scenarios like these, lately I'm beginning to feel the need to go much much harder as an antagonist and make myself as powerful as I can, which yes can be a good thing but leads to bad escalation and a rougher time for newer players. I feel often, RP security (which already has a larger security to antag ratio than classic, especially if the captain is tagging along for arrests which I am not a fan of unless needed) forgets that a lot of us are very robust, communicative and know each other to boot, and this shines most with the alert system that leads to grouping and stomping, in my opinion. I'd like to see security alerts changed and more effort put into dividing officer work (I'll be trying to improve with this myself), at the very least the button removed from the HUD on RP as it's much too instant.
I could rant about 'spectator syndrome' a lot honestly, it's a habit I don't expect people to be conciously doing however. It's not limited to security as well, I feel sometimes people will notice subtly that you're an antag trying to RP with someone and will just. Stand there and watch, wordlessly, until you're forced to make a move or straight up tell them to give you space which is both very suspicious and could be seen as pushing people away in favour of meta friends (despite the behavior I'm describing being standing still and staring). It's not entirely relevant to the topic though past officers doing it in the example described, I'll move on.
Another thing I'd like to see RP security do less is jump straight to arrest. If you get an alert and come to a scene of the antagonist (that hasn't proved to be very desctructive or hard to catch yet) with their typing box out, maybe... Wait? I feel this is the point I'm the most passionate about, for the love of christ please respect the rule of the typing box. This doesn't come from a place of wanting a head start, if 4 officers show up to an alert and I'm not prepared to kill all of security I'm GONNA get arrested, instead letting some words come out FIRST leads to more fun roleplay simple as that. Getting some words between you and the antagonist then a tense "stand down or I'll be forced to take you in" is a much much more entertaining arrest than sprinting to the scene, batonning and throwing in the portabrig. It feels worse sometimes as you might not even get interrogation RP afterward. I just feel as though a lot of officers seem to take the "we'll RP in interrogation" approach instead of letting an actual stand off happen for at least half a minute. When the cops show up to a scene with a potentially violent person do they just look forward and break into a full sprint towards the danger?
On the flip side, RP definitely struggles with chaotic shifts where an earlier execution would be prompted. I think this is inevitable in some form, it's in your better interest to be laxer than execute someone when you're not sure it's needed in most situations I'd say. However, the precedant that executions should only be for large kill counts and only if you have a Captain or HoS is simply false. Don't get me wrong, I am a HARD believer that you should not be executing someone for one kill on RP, I understand the want to act realistically but I play RP specifically so there IS that leniency there. Of course, one kill doesn't always mean first offense, I would be more willing to execute if they had been sabotaging previously, or had promised to kill again. I also encourage people to let the antag KNOW if they are being executed earlier than you usually would, a simple explanation of the chaos on board or a quick LOOC if you feel it's needed.
I have some thoughts on what babayetu said. Contraband is a messy issue sometimes. I'll be honest, if someone's using an antag item for some gimmick or whatever and hasn't been violent with it, I don't see why you should take it (forever) before crime is committed. Obviously it depends on the item, I'm not letting someone keep a gun or something that's clearly syndicate tech, but katanas for example I feel are a part of a subset of items that... Shouldn't really invoke such a strong response from security as others, before crime is done with it. If a coworker showed up with a katana to show off they'd probably get chewed out by their boss but your first thought wouldn't be "this man is about to kill me with a japanese katana" unless they were a nutter or swinging the thing around. Similar items would be things like the football and bowling ball kit. That being said yes, confiscate it until they get a permit. The scenario presented just made me thought of the topic though, taking the katana after a beepsky attack and giving it back once they had a permit was the right move.
Here's how I do it. Execution decisions are based on time of shift, clear unfairness or rulebreaking leading to the capture, current threat and chaos levels on station (I do not think a chaotic round is an excuse to execute on a mild/moderate first offense), the antagonist's roleplay and amount of present security players. I might be less willing to execute for a murder if the roleplay showed it was not done in pure evil malice. (good example being a traitor Grup shift recently where she attacked medbay, but was not executed as medbay was continuously provoking her with dead monkeys. Conversely she murdered a bartender on another shift, blew up an officer and said she would kill more, and was promptly given the boot.) On the flip side, I might execute someone who's not harmed anyone at all, but has repeated incidents with no sign of remorse.
Apologies if this was rambly and hard to read, I have a lot of thoughts on this and they're hard to gather well while I'm tired.
Security desperately needs one, re-written and central space law guide.
In terms of current security culture I feel it's more complex than simply too lax or too hard as of late. Here's an example, I feel a form of being too hard on antags lately has been what I'll call spectator syndrome. Take this scenario. You get an alert and rush with three other officers to the scene, there has not been violence yet. You see two people speaking with the antagonist and it seems calm. Instead of focusing attention elsewhere, you stay with the officers you brought and watch. You don't say anything, just stand still and watch, and suddenly there's about four officers standing still and watching while interaction happens. How do this feel to you? To me as the antagonist, that feels like most of security silently waiting for action while backing me into a corner so they can win. Because of scenarios like these, lately I'm beginning to feel the need to go much much harder as an antagonist and make myself as powerful as I can, which yes can be a good thing but leads to bad escalation and a rougher time for newer players. I feel often, RP security (which already has a larger security to antag ratio than classic, especially if the captain is tagging along for arrests which I am not a fan of unless needed) forgets that a lot of us are very robust, communicative and know each other to boot, and this shines most with the alert system that leads to grouping and stomping, in my opinion. I'd like to see security alerts changed and more effort put into dividing officer work (I'll be trying to improve with this myself), at the very least the button removed from the HUD on RP as it's much too instant.
I could rant about 'spectator syndrome' a lot honestly, it's a habit I don't expect people to be conciously doing however. It's not limited to security as well, I feel sometimes people will notice subtly that you're an antag trying to RP with someone and will just. Stand there and watch, wordlessly, until you're forced to make a move or straight up tell them to give you space which is both very suspicious and could be seen as pushing people away in favour of meta friends (despite the behavior I'm describing being standing still and staring). It's not entirely relevant to the topic though past officers doing it in the example described, I'll move on.
Another thing I'd like to see RP security do less is jump straight to arrest. If you get an alert and come to a scene of the antagonist (that hasn't proved to be very desctructive or hard to catch yet) with their typing box out, maybe... Wait? I feel this is the point I'm the most passionate about, for the love of christ please respect the rule of the typing box. This doesn't come from a place of wanting a head start, if 4 officers show up to an alert and I'm not prepared to kill all of security I'm GONNA get arrested, instead letting some words come out FIRST leads to more fun roleplay simple as that. Getting some words between you and the antagonist then a tense "stand down or I'll be forced to take you in" is a much much more entertaining arrest than sprinting to the scene, batonning and throwing in the portabrig. It feels worse sometimes as you might not even get interrogation RP afterward. I just feel as though a lot of officers seem to take the "we'll RP in interrogation" approach instead of letting an actual stand off happen for at least half a minute. When the cops show up to a scene with a potentially violent person do they just look forward and break into a full sprint towards the danger?
On the flip side, RP definitely struggles with chaotic shifts where an earlier execution would be prompted. I think this is inevitable in some form, it's in your better interest to be laxer than execute someone when you're not sure it's needed in most situations I'd say. However, the precedant that executions should only be for large kill counts and only if you have a Captain or HoS is simply false. Don't get me wrong, I am a HARD believer that you should not be executing someone for one kill on RP, I understand the want to act realistically but I play RP specifically so there IS that leniency there. Of course, one kill doesn't always mean first offense, I would be more willing to execute if they had been sabotaging previously, or had promised to kill again. I also encourage people to let the antag KNOW if they are being executed earlier than you usually would, a simple explanation of the chaos on board or a quick LOOC if you feel it's needed.
I have some thoughts on what babayetu said. Contraband is a messy issue sometimes. I'll be honest, if someone's using an antag item for some gimmick or whatever and hasn't been violent with it, I don't see why you should take it (forever) before crime is committed. Obviously it depends on the item, I'm not letting someone keep a gun or something that's clearly syndicate tech, but katanas for example I feel are a part of a subset of items that... Shouldn't really invoke such a strong response from security as others, before crime is done with it. If a coworker showed up with a katana to show off they'd probably get chewed out by their boss but your first thought wouldn't be "this man is about to kill me with a japanese katana" unless they were a nutter or swinging the thing around. Similar items would be things like the football and bowling ball kit. That being said yes, confiscate it until they get a permit. The scenario presented just made me thought of the topic though, taking the katana after a beepsky attack and giving it back once they had a permit was the right move.
Here's how I do it. Execution decisions are based on time of shift, clear unfairness or rulebreaking leading to the capture, current threat and chaos levels on station (I do not think a chaotic round is an excuse to execute on a mild/moderate first offense), the antagonist's roleplay and amount of present security players. I might be less willing to execute for a murder if the roleplay showed it was not done in pure evil malice. (good example being a traitor Grup shift recently where she attacked medbay, but was not executed as medbay was continuously provoking her with dead monkeys. Conversely she murdered a bartender on another shift, blew up an officer and said she would kill more, and was promptly given the boot.) On the flip side, I might execute someone who's not harmed anyone at all, but has repeated incidents with no sign of remorse.
Apologies if this was rambly and hard to read, I have a lot of thoughts on this and they're hard to gather well while I'm tired.