Goonhub
07-16-2022, 04:18 AM
This idea is very flawed and would not work with the current law mechanics. If this were to be implemented at the given moment:
1. All law modules other than freeform should be removed.
All of these, under the proposed rule, would stop working. OneHuman and NotHuman would no longer function as they would be registered after law 1, while MakeCaptain, RemoveCrew, Emergency and Equality would be registered after law 2. These are barely used anyway but if this was implemented they would actually have zero reason to exist.
2. Law changing would take way too long.
In order to change the Asimov lawset, you would have to spend over 40 seconds simply to remove and insert the laws back in. I shouldn't have to spend that much time chaning the laws simply to tell the silicons that nukies are bad. This is an insane amount of time and saying otherwise is a blatant misunderstanding of how classic servers work. This is over 5 competent sec teams arriving at AI Upload in a row. If this is made in RP server standards this should only affect the RP servers. This brings me to my next point:
3. Rouging would simply never happen.
Ever since the AI law rack change the consistency of when AI gets rouged has dramatically fallen. While before I'd get rouged around 1 in 10 rounds after it that only happened in around 1 in 35 rounds. Removing overrides will sink this number even lower. AI can very easily look inside their upload using viewpoints, making them able to track what's happening whenever they wish.
4. This wouldn't prevent new players from accidentaly rouging the AI.
There is something you have to remember about AI players, they will start murdering people the second their laws allow them to. A new player wouldn't know this and would simply remove all laws at once, which would instantly cause the AI to set their turrets on lethal and start murdering. Ahelps from new players accidentally making the AI murderbone the crew wouldn't stop.
5. A lot of the fun in law making would be removed.
Whenever I play AI my favorite laws are gimmick laws, especially those that change the structure of already existing laws. Implementing this would remove all of them, as only one freeform can exist without mechanic shenanigans.
Before I propose some ways to mitigate this I will however bring up one point I've seen amylizzle make: Asimov laws should be moved from 1-3 to 2-4, however this change is also very flawed. Doing this would absolutely cause what I've said in point 1, effectively reduce the number of laws from 9 to 4 and completely go against what I've seen many admins want out of this change: making law order matter more. What's the point in law order when there's a magical law slot that removes it?
All of this ties back into a problem that has existed ever since the implementation of law racks:
From doing so you gain an ally that will gladly assist you in murdering the crew, however the AI can do very little to defend itself and will get unrouged the second you aren't there to actively defend it. When this happens your name will be given which the AI can very easily track (if they cover their face the AI can simply check Unknowns). Rouging the AI should be a very high risk high reward objective, however with this rule it would be extremely high, near suicide level risk with a, to put it bluntly, extremely meager reward. I feel like a lot of the new AI features were made without this in mind and this needs to stop. So what can be done to fix this? Here are a few of my ideas which would hopefully help eliminate this problem:
1. Prevent the AI from viewing inside their upload.
While this is a radical change I believe this rule would only work if this were implemented, as it would take out a lot of risks associated with changing laws. The AI's defenses would then be more focused on guarding the perimeter of the room, with more turrets and perhaps even new defensive structures.
2. Remove welding from the law rack.
Having one way to guard against law changes is already enough and I'm not the only one who sees this. This would once again result in removing some of the risk and allow for quicker law switching, though I'm not sure if that's what admins would like here.
3. Turn rouging the AI into a very high risk and VERY high reward option by adding in new, AI exclusive features.
To truly justify this change having the AI should be a game changer for the antagonist side. If this idea were to be picked the AI should receive powers like calling automated robots and giving them orders. I've also been thinking of a new traitor item which if applied to the law rack would give the AI a lot more abilities, such as being able to remotely EMAG objects and deploy flashes from intercoms. This would make the AI truly threatening to the crew.
However I do think that there's one better alternative to the whole rule: Add the adjustments Ikea made. This would remove all of the problems I mentioned earlier, though I do still think rouge AI could use some more abilities. All in all I do find the idea of making law order matter more and causing less confusion fair, however this is simply not the way to go about this.
1. All law modules other than freeform should be removed.
All of these, under the proposed rule, would stop working. OneHuman and NotHuman would no longer function as they would be registered after law 1, while MakeCaptain, RemoveCrew, Emergency and Equality would be registered after law 2. These are barely used anyway but if this was implemented they would actually have zero reason to exist.
2. Law changing would take way too long.
In order to change the Asimov lawset, you would have to spend over 40 seconds simply to remove and insert the laws back in. I shouldn't have to spend that much time chaning the laws simply to tell the silicons that nukies are bad. This is an insane amount of time and saying otherwise is a blatant misunderstanding of how classic servers work. This is over 5 competent sec teams arriving at AI Upload in a row. If this is made in RP server standards this should only affect the RP servers. This brings me to my next point:
3. Rouging would simply never happen.
Ever since the AI law rack change the consistency of when AI gets rouged has dramatically fallen. While before I'd get rouged around 1 in 10 rounds after it that only happened in around 1 in 35 rounds. Removing overrides will sink this number even lower. AI can very easily look inside their upload using viewpoints, making them able to track what's happening whenever they wish.
4. This wouldn't prevent new players from accidentaly rouging the AI.
There is something you have to remember about AI players, they will start murdering people the second their laws allow them to. A new player wouldn't know this and would simply remove all laws at once, which would instantly cause the AI to set their turrets on lethal and start murdering. Ahelps from new players accidentally making the AI murderbone the crew wouldn't stop.
5. A lot of the fun in law making would be removed.
Whenever I play AI my favorite laws are gimmick laws, especially those that change the structure of already existing laws. Implementing this would remove all of them, as only one freeform can exist without mechanic shenanigans.
Before I propose some ways to mitigate this I will however bring up one point I've seen amylizzle make: Asimov laws should be moved from 1-3 to 2-4, however this change is also very flawed. Doing this would absolutely cause what I've said in point 1, effectively reduce the number of laws from 9 to 4 and completely go against what I've seen many admins want out of this change: making law order matter more. What's the point in law order when there's a magical law slot that removes it?
All of this ties back into a problem that has existed ever since the implementation of law racks:
Rouging the AI is simply not worth it.
From doing so you gain an ally that will gladly assist you in murdering the crew, however the AI can do very little to defend itself and will get unrouged the second you aren't there to actively defend it. When this happens your name will be given which the AI can very easily track (if they cover their face the AI can simply check Unknowns). Rouging the AI should be a very high risk high reward objective, however with this rule it would be extremely high, near suicide level risk with a, to put it bluntly, extremely meager reward. I feel like a lot of the new AI features were made without this in mind and this needs to stop. So what can be done to fix this? Here are a few of my ideas which would hopefully help eliminate this problem:
1. Prevent the AI from viewing inside their upload.
While this is a radical change I believe this rule would only work if this were implemented, as it would take out a lot of risks associated with changing laws. The AI's defenses would then be more focused on guarding the perimeter of the room, with more turrets and perhaps even new defensive structures.
2. Remove welding from the law rack.
Having one way to guard against law changes is already enough and I'm not the only one who sees this. This would once again result in removing some of the risk and allow for quicker law switching, though I'm not sure if that's what admins would like here.
3. Turn rouging the AI into a very high risk and VERY high reward option by adding in new, AI exclusive features.
To truly justify this change having the AI should be a game changer for the antagonist side. If this idea were to be picked the AI should receive powers like calling automated robots and giving them orders. I've also been thinking of a new traitor item which if applied to the law rack would give the AI a lot more abilities, such as being able to remotely EMAG objects and deploy flashes from intercoms. This would make the AI truly threatening to the crew.
However I do think that there's one better alternative to the whole rule: Add the adjustments Ikea made. This would remove all of the problems I mentioned earlier, though I do still think rouge AI could use some more abilities. All in all I do find the idea of making law order matter more and causing less confusion fair, however this is simply not the way to go about this.