Goonhub
02-28-2022, 10:45 AM
i'm tired and high but i'm going to respond to some direct points:
i do comment on antag activity sometimes, yes, generally when they've had a major impact upon the station. this isn't unusual and it's a verbal version of the "send in a tactical syndie squad with the objective to kill the person who has murdered most of them".
you mixed up two events.
specifically, i called it lame to your face; you actually quoted this above
however, the decal text above your trap was set as this, and never changed:
anyway, there's something i want to discuss, and it involves this:
i'm going to speak for myself here and not for the admin body at large; this is my opinion.
there is a thing that goes on here where we, the developer and admin team, can try to change behavior we don't like seeing.
- we can make a new rule. this happens sometimes, or we need to clarify things.
- we can change the game mechanics to forbid it. see: making teleport pads have an impossible-to-remove glow; removing interactions or adding delays to things. basically, what you call nerfs.
- we can enforce the behavior by targeting the player who express it.
i am a big proponent of the latter one. a lot of the time, problems are caused by a small number of people running a mechanic or interaction into the ground. it happened when people would constantly run sol every round; it wasn't that sol itself was particularly bad, it was that two or three people would constantly do it. it is like a "take a penny, leave a penny" tray at the convenience store, if you will; you're supposed to be responsible with it.
yesterday, alone, there were 3 gang rounds that i noticed, and all three had similar events like this. one had a teleport-graviton-crusher trap; one had a ttv detonate on the shuttle; one had a teletrap-graviton-brute trap, that is, yours. none of these were part of gang gameplay; they were gang members using their antag status to be a hardmode traitor.
again, that happened with your own trap, evidenced that you killed multiple people in your own gang and then yourself. this is akin to a mindslave ignoring their master's orders or a changeling critter / controller revealing its master. you are directly going against the rules of the mode!
rather than figuring out how we can slap on more arbitrary restrictions on mechanics tools ("requires them to stay still on the pad before it teleports? shows what's on the other side? remove them or pressure pads entirely?") , my goal is to drive change through negative reinforcement. what you are doing is not good for the game. i want you to stop doing it. the ban is my way of telling you that, because you have already ruined several other people's rounds with your utter lack of respect for the other people playing this game.
i'm not sure if we're playing the same game; i'm really not. naming and shaming these people is a common occurrence; we have shamecubed people for it, we have turned people into cluwnes with the name "I THINK SLURS ARE FUNNY, BEAT ME FOR PRIZES", i have personally summoned mike tyson and the banshark on people to make a spectacle of the racist getting shown the door. it is how i stand up and say "i could ban this guy quietly, but i want to send a message: this is not welcome here."
when was shamecubing stopped, exactly? this is news to me because i very much still use it and see it used.
again: it's sending a message. your indiscriminate killing machine was killing everyone. when people tried to take it apart, you put it back together. it killed you, it killed your gang's members, it effectively took out over half of the station.
quite similar to how i feel about bad antag behavior; i just call it out in-game.
i'm going to ask you to stop with the repeated insinuations of this. you aren't going to get in shit. nobody cares. the supposed guidelines and rules that you care so much about even say that making a good faith complaint is basically wholly protected.
you pulled the entire server's population into the issue by killing them all.
(02-28-2022, 08:32 AM)McDougie Wrote: Title is direct quote from zamujasa - not a comment by myself.
Stephanie Mir says, "cool tele trap built by some dweeb"
Stephanie Mir says, "oh hey it's the teletrap creator" (since when did admins identify antags publically????????)
Stephanie Mir says, "boring and lame as shit"
Stephanie Mir says, "zero stars"
Keegan Owens says, "i did not realize i asked for your opinion"
Other context (my response on seeing a giant bit of admin text above the trap labelling it as lame etc):
Keegan Owens says, "i mean sure"
Keegan Owens says, "call my stuff lame"
Keegan Owens says, "doesn t exactly"
Keegan Owens says, "give me a good opinion"
i do comment on antag activity sometimes, yes, generally when they've had a major impact upon the station. this isn't unusual and it's a verbal version of the "send in a tactical syndie squad with the objective to kill the person who has murdered most of them".
Quote:Then after I died (ironically to my own trap much to many peoples amusement including my own):
DEAD: Ghost (Keegan Owens) laments, "oh so its now dumb instead of lame" (Me noticing giant text floating over the trap was changed - someone likely knew what they said was not at all nice or it simply would never have been changed)
DEAD: Ghost (Hane Larz) wails, "ITS BOTH DUMB AND LAME"
DEAD: Ghost (Keegan Owens) wails, "never had a badmin be so insulting over murdering people as antag lol"
you mixed up two events.
specifically, i called it lame to your face; you actually quoted this above
Quote:Stephanie Mir Zamujasa says, "boring and lame as shit" Aviary (226,116,1)
however, the decal text above your trap was set as this, and never changed:
Quote:[2022-02-28 12:25:02.854] [admin] Stephanie Mir (Zamujasa): modified decal's maptext to welcome to keegan owens's
- dumb tele graviton trap!
- it's what makes gang fun™
anyway, there's something i want to discuss, and it involves this:
Quote:Then a minute after that comment this appears:
You have been banned by zamujasa.
Reason: This is very much a "I think your playstyle sucks ass and is part of the reason people hate Gang" ban, but also because gang is a team mode where you're supposed to work with your gang to beat other gangs while trying to avoid killing civilians. Your dumb teletrap has illed most of the server and, in a hilarious "twist", your boring, instant-kill trap managed to team-kill two of your own gang members. Stop being awful.
i'm going to speak for myself here and not for the admin body at large; this is my opinion.
there is a thing that goes on here where we, the developer and admin team, can try to change behavior we don't like seeing.
- we can make a new rule. this happens sometimes, or we need to clarify things.
- we can change the game mechanics to forbid it. see: making teleport pads have an impossible-to-remove glow; removing interactions or adding delays to things. basically, what you call nerfs.
- we can enforce the behavior by targeting the player who express it.
i am a big proponent of the latter one. a lot of the time, problems are caused by a small number of people running a mechanic or interaction into the ground. it happened when people would constantly run sol every round; it wasn't that sol itself was particularly bad, it was that two or three people would constantly do it. it is like a "take a penny, leave a penny" tray at the convenience store, if you will; you're supposed to be responsible with it.
yesterday, alone, there were 3 gang rounds that i noticed, and all three had similar events like this. one had a teleport-graviton-crusher trap; one had a ttv detonate on the shuttle; one had a teletrap-graviton-brute trap, that is, yours. none of these were part of gang gameplay; they were gang members using their antag status to be a hardmode traitor.
again, that happened with your own trap, evidenced that you killed multiple people in your own gang and then yourself. this is akin to a mindslave ignoring their master's orders or a changeling critter / controller revealing its master. you are directly going against the rules of the mode!
rather than figuring out how we can slap on more arbitrary restrictions on mechanics tools ("requires them to stay still on the pad before it teleports? shows what's on the other side? remove them or pressure pads entirely?") , my goal is to drive change through negative reinforcement. what you are doing is not good for the game. i want you to stop doing it. the ban is my way of telling you that, because you have already ruined several other people's rounds with your utter lack of respect for the other people playing this game.
Quote:Respect works two ways - there are much nicer and better ways about going about these things and a label calling a specific player lame, boring etc for the entire round to see is just shitty. Period.
It suggests more investment in looking down on people than actually bringing any positive change. Its pulling the entire servers population into an issue that should have been dealt with privately between myself and the admin.
I have never once seen that happen to anyone else for even much worse issues - racists, bigots etc just get booted. Telling someone their playstyle 'sucks ass' (seriously????) even in quotes is... literally just quoting yourself? Like who even does that? Ignoring that ... sticking quote marks round your own words does not make them somehow not your responsbility.
Can't believe Im even typing this as its completely insane but if I ever do anything banworthy again I would much rather just be treated the exact same as a racist bigot and just banned straight away. Nobody publically shames any of the people who make *those* sorts of comments. Its a quiet ahelp, the person vanishes and thats it. Far better and way more professional than what happened here.
i'm not sure if we're playing the same game; i'm really not. naming and shaming these people is a common occurrence; we have shamecubed people for it, we have turned people into cluwnes with the name "I THINK SLURS ARE FUNNY, BEAT ME FOR PRIZES", i have personally summoned mike tyson and the banshark on people to make a spectacle of the racist getting shown the door. it is how i stand up and say "i could ban this guy quietly, but i want to send a message: this is not welcome here."
Quote:Its public ridicule and not the way I expect a mature and reasonable admin to behave - afaik shamecubing was specifically stopped because of that exact reason - its not a nice or reasonable way to treat people at all. It leads directly to resentment against specific admins and thoroughly trashes any perception of impartiality and morality.
when was shamecubing stopped, exactly? this is news to me because i very much still use it and see it used.
Quote:Why are we turning someones actions into a public fingerpointing gimmick then banning them for said actions? Just ban/ PM / tell off/ / gib / etc and stick your annoying kill counter elsewhere. It gives the wrong message completely.
again: it's sending a message. your indiscriminate killing machine was killing everyone. when people tried to take it apart, you put it back together. it killed you, it killed your gang's members, it effectively took out over half of the station.
Quote:I'd like to make the recommendation that if your going to ban someone for anything then don't set up an entire silly gimmick around the exact actions you later claim to ban them over. It comes across as inauthetic (read downright deceptive and immoral) and seriously weakens any reason you claim to give. Infact I'd much rather not be involved in any gimmick at all by any individual that behaves like this. Its not the first time an interaction with zamujasa has left me feeling that something was really not good - zamujasa is the only admin i have ever considered making a complaint thread about prior to this. I decided not to then for fear of reprisals but at some point behavior like this needs calling out or it never changes.
quite similar to how i feel about bad antag behavior; i just call it out in-game.
Quote:Im so going to get in shit for this thread but theres a line in terms of what behavior is and is not acceptable for a person in a position of power over a community and to me that line was firmly crossed.
i'm going to ask you to stop with the repeated insinuations of this. you aren't going to get in shit. nobody cares. the supposed guidelines and rules that you care so much about even say that making a good faith complaint is basically wholly protected.
Quote:It suggests more investment in looking down on people than actually bringing any positive change. Its pulling the entire servers population into an issue that should have been dealt with privately between myself and the admin.
you pulled the entire server's population into the issue by killing them all.