Goonhub
02-28-2022, 08:32 AM
Title is direct quote from zamujasa - not a comment by myself.
Stephanie Mir says, "cool tele trap built by some dweeb"
Stephanie Mir says, "oh hey it's the teletrap creator" (since when did admins identify antags publically????????)
Stephanie Mir says, "boring and lame as shit"
Stephanie Mir says, "zero stars"
Keegan Owens says, "i did not realize i asked for your opinion"
Other context (my response on seeing a giant bit of admin text above the trap labelling it as lame etc):
Keegan Owens says, "i mean sure"
Keegan Owens says, "call my stuff lame"
Keegan Owens says, "doesn t exactly"
Keegan Owens says, "give me a good opinion"
Then after I died (ironically to my own trap much to many peoples amusement including my own):
DEAD: Ghost (Keegan Owens) laments, "oh so its now dumb instead of lame" (Me noticing giant text floating over the trap was changed - someone likely knew what they said was not at all nice or it simply would never have been changed)
DEAD: Ghost (Hane Larz) wails, "ITS BOTH DUMB AND LAME"
DEAD: Ghost (Keegan Owens) wails, "never had a badmin be so insulting over murdering people as antag lol"
Then a minute after that comment this appears:
You have been banned by zamujasa.
Reason: This is very much a "I think your playstyle sucks ass and is part of the reason people hate Gang" ban, but also because gang is a team mode where you're supposed to work with your gang to beat other gangs while trying to avoid killing civilians. Your dumb teletrap has illed most of the server and, in a hilarious "twist", your boring, instant-kill trap managed to team-kill two of your own gang members. Stop being awful.
Respect works two ways - there are much nicer and better ways about going about these things and a label calling a specific player lame, boring etc for the entire round to see is just shitty. Period.
It suggests more investment in looking down on people than actually bringing any positive change. Its pulling the entire servers population into an issue that should have been dealt with privately between myself and the admin.
I have never once seen that happen to anyone else for even much worse issues - racists, bigots etc just get booted. Telling someone their playstyle 'sucks ass' (seriously????) even in quotes is... literally just quoting yourself? Like who even does that? Ignoring that ... sticking quote marks round your own words does not make them somehow not your responsbility.
Can't believe Im even typing this as its completely insane but if I ever do anything banworthy again I would much rather just be treated the exact same as a racist bigot and just banned straight away. Nobody publically shames any of the people who make *those* sorts of comments. Its a quiet ahelp, the person vanishes and thats it. Far better and way more professional than what happened here.
Its public ridicule and not the way I expect a mature and reasonable admin to behave - afaik shamecubing was specifically stopped because of that exact reason - its not a nice or reasonable way to treat people at all. It leads directly to resentment against specific admins and thoroughly trashes any perception of impartiality and morality.
If you had quietly sent a PM asking for it to be dismantled then I would have done that. You didn't, instead you set up your gimmick kill counter, stood next to the trap for the entire time it existed, told anyone nearby I made it (again what happened to admins not identifying antags etc?), put up giant text ridiculing and naming me and then only after I made a comment in deadchat that I had never had an admin be that rude to me you decided to ban me. This comes across as petty immature revenge for the comment rather than anything to do with the trap - otherwise why did the ban come right after that comment? if it was truely due to the traps impact on the game then it would/should have been shut down way sooner and there would have been no silly gimmick kill counter etc.
I came back to repair it at points and space a couple of people dismantling it - why didnt you tell me to stop then? There were so many opportunities and ways to deal with this in a professional manner that were not taken. It was ONLY after the comment about a rude badmin that the ban came (note the comment didnt name said badmin - a courtesy given but not received). Im sure there will be some explanation as to why the two were not related and how it was some other reason but the timing speaks for itself. The ban came in way after peoples rounds had already been impacted and like a minute after I made the comment. Its extremely difficult for me to rationalize it as anything other than a reaction to the comment which I stand by 100%. The behavior was indeed very rude (plus some other choice words) and I had at the time never myself directly seen an admin behave this way.
Why are we turning someones actions into a public fingerpointing gimmick then banning them for said actions? Just ban/ PM / tell off/ / gib / etc and stick your annoying kill counter elsewhere. It gives the wrong message completely.
I would like some other admins to comment on whether publically ridiculing a player in this manner is remotely acceptable. I was under the impression that it was not- the fact that other players started mirroring zams specific comments just goes to show why such behavior can result in consequences involving other players other than the admin and offendee. We do not want witch hunts so why are we encouraging them like this? If we are not encouraging witchhunts then what the hell was the purpose of the text? A joke? Do you see me laughing? A bit of fun? For who exactly? Certainly not me.
I'd like to make the recommendation that if your going to ban someone for anything then don't set up an entire silly gimmick around the exact actions you later claim to ban them over. It comes across as inauthetic (read downright deceptive and immoral) and seriously weakens any reason you claim to give. Infact I'd much rather not be involved in any gimmick at all by any individual that behaves like this. Its not the first time an interaction with zamujasa has left me feeling that something was really not good - zamujasa is the only admin i have ever considered making a complaint thread about prior to this. I decided not to then for fear of reprisals but at some point behavior like this needs calling out or it never changes.
Just to be clear - dont care about the 6hr ban. I probably did deserve it for what I did. I do not think I deserve the rest of the stuff that happened was at all nice or reasonable - especially given its a level of publically targetted malice against a specific player beyond what I have ever seen employed for even the most vile racists bigots etc.
Im so going to get in shit for this thread but theres a line in terms of what behavior is and is not acceptable for a person in a position of power over a community and to me that line was firmly crossed.
Just to finish this rant off here are some choice parts of the admin guidelines that I believe are relevant:
https://wiki.ss13.co/Admin_Guidelines
DISCOURAGED:
Stephanie Mir says, "cool tele trap built by some dweeb"
Stephanie Mir says, "oh hey it's the teletrap creator" (since when did admins identify antags publically????????)
Stephanie Mir says, "boring and lame as shit"
Stephanie Mir says, "zero stars"
Keegan Owens says, "i did not realize i asked for your opinion"
Other context (my response on seeing a giant bit of admin text above the trap labelling it as lame etc):
Keegan Owens says, "i mean sure"
Keegan Owens says, "call my stuff lame"
Keegan Owens says, "doesn t exactly"
Keegan Owens says, "give me a good opinion"
Then after I died (ironically to my own trap much to many peoples amusement including my own):
DEAD: Ghost (Keegan Owens) laments, "oh so its now dumb instead of lame" (Me noticing giant text floating over the trap was changed - someone likely knew what they said was not at all nice or it simply would never have been changed)
DEAD: Ghost (Hane Larz) wails, "ITS BOTH DUMB AND LAME"
DEAD: Ghost (Keegan Owens) wails, "never had a badmin be so insulting over murdering people as antag lol"
Then a minute after that comment this appears:
You have been banned by zamujasa.
Reason: This is very much a "I think your playstyle sucks ass and is part of the reason people hate Gang" ban, but also because gang is a team mode where you're supposed to work with your gang to beat other gangs while trying to avoid killing civilians. Your dumb teletrap has illed most of the server and, in a hilarious "twist", your boring, instant-kill trap managed to team-kill two of your own gang members. Stop being awful.
Respect works two ways - there are much nicer and better ways about going about these things and a label calling a specific player lame, boring etc for the entire round to see is just shitty. Period.
It suggests more investment in looking down on people than actually bringing any positive change. Its pulling the entire servers population into an issue that should have been dealt with privately between myself and the admin.
I have never once seen that happen to anyone else for even much worse issues - racists, bigots etc just get booted. Telling someone their playstyle 'sucks ass' (seriously????) even in quotes is... literally just quoting yourself? Like who even does that? Ignoring that ... sticking quote marks round your own words does not make them somehow not your responsbility.
Can't believe Im even typing this as its completely insane but if I ever do anything banworthy again I would much rather just be treated the exact same as a racist bigot and just banned straight away. Nobody publically shames any of the people who make *those* sorts of comments. Its a quiet ahelp, the person vanishes and thats it. Far better and way more professional than what happened here.
Its public ridicule and not the way I expect a mature and reasonable admin to behave - afaik shamecubing was specifically stopped because of that exact reason - its not a nice or reasonable way to treat people at all. It leads directly to resentment against specific admins and thoroughly trashes any perception of impartiality and morality.
If you had quietly sent a PM asking for it to be dismantled then I would have done that. You didn't, instead you set up your gimmick kill counter, stood next to the trap for the entire time it existed, told anyone nearby I made it (again what happened to admins not identifying antags etc?), put up giant text ridiculing and naming me and then only after I made a comment in deadchat that I had never had an admin be that rude to me you decided to ban me. This comes across as petty immature revenge for the comment rather than anything to do with the trap - otherwise why did the ban come right after that comment? if it was truely due to the traps impact on the game then it would/should have been shut down way sooner and there would have been no silly gimmick kill counter etc.
I came back to repair it at points and space a couple of people dismantling it - why didnt you tell me to stop then? There were so many opportunities and ways to deal with this in a professional manner that were not taken. It was ONLY after the comment about a rude badmin that the ban came (note the comment didnt name said badmin - a courtesy given but not received). Im sure there will be some explanation as to why the two were not related and how it was some other reason but the timing speaks for itself. The ban came in way after peoples rounds had already been impacted and like a minute after I made the comment. Its extremely difficult for me to rationalize it as anything other than a reaction to the comment which I stand by 100%. The behavior was indeed very rude (plus some other choice words) and I had at the time never myself directly seen an admin behave this way.
Why are we turning someones actions into a public fingerpointing gimmick then banning them for said actions? Just ban/ PM / tell off/ / gib / etc and stick your annoying kill counter elsewhere. It gives the wrong message completely.
I would like some other admins to comment on whether publically ridiculing a player in this manner is remotely acceptable. I was under the impression that it was not- the fact that other players started mirroring zams specific comments just goes to show why such behavior can result in consequences involving other players other than the admin and offendee. We do not want witch hunts so why are we encouraging them like this? If we are not encouraging witchhunts then what the hell was the purpose of the text? A joke? Do you see me laughing? A bit of fun? For who exactly? Certainly not me.
I'd like to make the recommendation that if your going to ban someone for anything then don't set up an entire silly gimmick around the exact actions you later claim to ban them over. It comes across as inauthetic (read downright deceptive and immoral) and seriously weakens any reason you claim to give. Infact I'd much rather not be involved in any gimmick at all by any individual that behaves like this. Its not the first time an interaction with zamujasa has left me feeling that something was really not good - zamujasa is the only admin i have ever considered making a complaint thread about prior to this. I decided not to then for fear of reprisals but at some point behavior like this needs calling out or it never changes.
Just to be clear - dont care about the 6hr ban. I probably did deserve it for what I did. I do not think I deserve the rest of the stuff that happened was at all nice or reasonable - especially given its a level of publically targetted malice against a specific player beyond what I have ever seen employed for even the most vile racists bigots etc.
Im so going to get in shit for this thread but theres a line in terms of what behavior is and is not acceptable for a person in a position of power over a community and to me that line was firmly crossed.
Just to finish this rant off here are some choice parts of the admin guidelines that I believe are relevant:
https://wiki.ss13.co/Admin_Guidelines
DISCOURAGED:
- Staff are strongly discouraged from maintaining negative or antagonistic conversational habits in Goonstation-branded spaces, even when it doesn't rise to the level of abuse - you're representing our community, please don't make us look bad.
- Staff are strongly discouraged from punishing or extensively reprimanding players in public venues, such as OOC or a public Discord channel. Instead, staff should seek to resolve those issues in more controlled spaces, such as in adminhelps or the #lets-talk channel.
- Administrators are strongly discouraged from revealing secrets of the round - the main example being the identity of any antagonists - to any player or member of the public while that round is in session. A few exceptions are a new player who has no idea what killed them, or if you are certain the player is out of the round for good - they are dead, their body has been destroyed, and they weren’t previously scanned in the cloner - and even then, exercise care, because they might talk about it in dead chat to someone who gets cloned.