Goonhub
02-11-2022, 04:53 PM
Okay, wall of text incoming, so beware. I'll do my best to remove any unnecessary information, but no promises.
The main takeaway of this is that there is a consistent pattern of over-escalation from Efrem.
There are a number of cases throughout goon media that I'd like to highlight, though please keep in mind there are many more that could be found, especially in the much larger ban appeals forum which takes forever to page through. This is not designed to be an exhaustive list, it's just intended to be enough to illustrate a clear pattern. If more examples are needed, I can provide them.
Disclaimer: The actions of the banned in any case I have discussed are not necessarily correct or good, they are just not deserving of the punishment or treatment returned. The point of this is not to justify bad actors, it's to bring attention to the responses of those actions.
Disclaimer pt. 2: I am putting together sources on these things, I obviously was not there. Feel free to mention any glaring errors or misunderstandings, but in the interest of addressing the overall issue, please don't cherry-pick minor things, that's no the point of this thread.
https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=16384
First, there is this case, where Efrem was running an rp nukies round, but unfortunately picked some newer players who were in over their heads. Upon running into the lone security member, they initiated combat and the security member arrested two of them. Efrem pms and they briefly disagree, then the security member is daybanned. It goes to forums (ban app and admin feedback), then apparently private communications after which it is declared to be resolved. Here's the issue. Whether or not someone should prioritize being a realistic HoS or what's going to be the best for the gimmick is debatable, but you can see as one examines the logs, that it becomes apparent the primary concern is the bannee saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" a non-apology and a bit rude, to be fair, but worth a dayban and the threat of losing mentorship AND the repeated hurtful comments from a position of authority? Hardly.
https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid...ight=Efrem
Next, there's this case. Someone who was obviously newer to this game, because they didn't understand the ahelping system, sent an ahelp about being murdered and didn't get a response. They didn't get a response for a while, and didn't know that it's pretty rare for an ahelp to be responded too, especially if it's about antag status. (Their forum account was like a week old when they posted that thread, they were new.) Efrem then took it upon themself to change their ckey display to "FazbeusSmellsLikeSkunkVomit" which could, theoretically, be funny if they were close and both understand that it was a joke, but this was from a position of authority in a video game with no outside context and was hurtful. In that thread, it was acknowledged that this wasn't cool, but the specific quote was...
There's no apology in there, it's from someone other than Efrem, and mostly? That implies that there was admins who thought it was perfectly fine, which is honestly concerning. New players being insulted for not understanding what is rather unique to us isn't wonderful.
https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid...ight=Efrem
This is another similar issue, where someone was adminwhoing, didn't know it made an admin message of some kind (literally I didn't know that until very recently, and I have 600+ hours in this game) and had done it multiple times in a short span. That's incredibly harmless. Efrem than responded to this by admin-killing the player (wtf!), respawning them in medbay, and then filling them to the brim with mercury, killing them without recourse. They also got their name changed to #1Adminwhoer. The player ahelps, asking for clarification and I'm just going to post the logs the player did because that's easier.
Efrem starts off by lying about admin-killing, then admits it and deflects, trying to re-direct the attention onto the adminwhoing. The last thing I'd like to point out about this case, and arguably the most indicative of the poor behaviour, was the admin response. (If the image doesn't upload properly, you can see it in the link or through the imgur link here: https://imgur.com/a/ZTBdT3K)
![[Image: OosINaJ]](https://imgur.com/OosINaJ)
This was disrespectful and honestly, childish. Instead of taking responsibility and owning up to their actions, Efrem tried to turn it into a joke and brush it off. Own your fuck-ups, not "I deserve to be BANNED for being a DILDO about ADMINWHO."
Lastly, I'd like to talk about a personal case of minor over-escalation. I really don't want to rehash this, it's just a situation where I have a lot of information about it, so I think it's prudent to discuss it. In short, I was playing scientist and research was pretty quiet, I was mostly doing my own thing. Well into the round, I get hungry and order food, and when it arrives I walked into a corner or locker or something and logged off, without cryoing. This was obviously a fuck-up on my part, I should have taken the time to walk down to cryo and put myself in there and all that. I logged back in and I'd been turned into biomatter, which was a little strange, so I OOC'd at round-end (when I re-joined) about it. Fortunately, the ban appeal contains the quote, which was as follows.
However, again, it was done rather poorly. The "rule" broken was under Things to Keep in Mind and has generally been sort of a courteous thing, rather than a strict requirement. The ban message also focused on the message which was, to quote a wonderful book, mostly harmless. Overall, it was a screw-up, but a minor one in the grand scheme of things, and likely could have been handled with a "hey please remember to hit f1 before leaving because otherwise it can fuck up the round for a lot of people, ty" and that would have gotten the message through.
Leaving the specifics behind, since I think (hope?) it's enough to make the point, I want to discuss general admin conduct. There are a few patterns I personally have noticed, and I believe the sentiment is mirrored by others.
First, specifically with new players, there's a pattern of hostility that can lead to them feeling alienated from the game. I remember an admin talking about how only an extremely tiny number of players will appeal bans, especially ones that are "bans to forum". Of course, I don't have the numbers, but that's concerning. Every time a player is banned for something that they didn't understand or didn't know was a rule (which was literally demonstrated above in very clear terms) is going to lose the opportunity to become a productive and awesome member of this community, and instead, move on to another free game. This also extends beyond bans! I just saw Efrem insulting a brand-new player for their typing style in discord (read for yourself: https://discord.com/channels/18224996089...7365283941). This isn't cool! That's alienating, someone from a position of authority just told you to "type like a normal human being" instead of sending you useful resources and advice to get started. Being cognizant of the fact that most people who are playing their first handful of games aren't going to care enough to create a forum account, get it approved, then make a detailed ban appeal discussing their flaws, and wait for it to be accepted is important; and while yes, that dick who just wrote out every slur known to humankind isn't going to be a great loss, someone who adminwhos, or afks, or literally is asking how to play the game is not a bad person! In short, it's expected that admins give new players both the benefit of the doubt and basic respect. If that doesn't happen, they leave, and we lose a unique voice and possible contributor to this incredible community.
Second, the ends do not justify the means. We need to stop excusing shitty admin responses just because the player did something bad. The issue is not the escalation, it's the over-escalation. I've read many, many of these admin feedback posts and ban appeals relating to Efrem, and basically, every time stuff gets called out, the admin responding (be it Efrem or someone on behalf of them) uses a comment on the person complaining or some similar justification to soften the blow. This justification is generally legitimate and honest but detracts from the "apology" (in quotes because this is trying to encompass statements like, "we thought the actions were unprofessional", which aren't designed to be apologies). "Sorry, but..." isn't a good apology, and owning up means owning that within the context of the situation, the actions of the admin were bad. "Sorry, but you did say the admin was malding, or "sorry, but you shouldn't say 'sorry you feel that way'", or "sorry but they are also a problem player" isn't good enough, and clearly isn't enough accountability. Either decide that the handling of the incident was unprofessional, and that it ought to be corrected for the future, or decide that it was okay to escalate in the way that it happened, because of the player's history (or whatever else) and leave it at that. The only exception to this would be cases where the person's complaint itself was problematic (such as, I suppose, the "malding" case, that was a poor example) in which case it's fine to address that there.
Third, and most importantly, do not address these issues individually. I have spent an absurd amount of time (and even more procrastinating) working on putting together these issues, which have each been handled individually. This is not an individual issue, none of these problems are massive, glaring issues on their own, this is a consistent pattern of mild to moderate over-escalation and hostility, leading to over-arching problems. I do not want one issue within this post to be pulled out and sliced up to try and show how Efrem wasn't that bad in that situation. As admins say, this is the "straw that broke the camel's back".
Lastly, to address the other posters in this thread. Please don't try to take this over with whatever other issue you had with an admin. If this is a direct case of Efrem, specifically, over-escalating or acting inappropriately in a way that fits with these other cases, and you are willing to write out a detailed description of those events, that is fine. Anything else can have its own admin feedback thread. Thank you for working to keep this clear, Emily.
The main takeaway of this is that there is a consistent pattern of over-escalation from Efrem.
There are a number of cases throughout goon media that I'd like to highlight, though please keep in mind there are many more that could be found, especially in the much larger ban appeals forum which takes forever to page through. This is not designed to be an exhaustive list, it's just intended to be enough to illustrate a clear pattern. If more examples are needed, I can provide them.
Disclaimer: The actions of the banned in any case I have discussed are not necessarily correct or good, they are just not deserving of the punishment or treatment returned. The point of this is not to justify bad actors, it's to bring attention to the responses of those actions.
Disclaimer pt. 2: I am putting together sources on these things, I obviously was not there. Feel free to mention any glaring errors or misunderstandings, but in the interest of addressing the overall issue, please don't cherry-pick minor things, that's no the point of this thread.
https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=16384
First, there is this case, where Efrem was running an rp nukies round, but unfortunately picked some newer players who were in over their heads. Upon running into the lone security member, they initiated combat and the security member arrested two of them. Efrem pms and they briefly disagree, then the security member is daybanned. It goes to forums (ban app and admin feedback), then apparently private communications after which it is declared to be resolved. Here's the issue. Whether or not someone should prioritize being a realistic HoS or what's going to be the best for the gimmick is debatable, but you can see as one examines the logs, that it becomes apparent the primary concern is the bannee saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" a non-apology and a bit rude, to be fair, but worth a dayban and the threat of losing mentorship AND the repeated hurtful comments from a position of authority? Hardly.
https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid...ight=Efrem
Next, there's this case. Someone who was obviously newer to this game, because they didn't understand the ahelping system, sent an ahelp about being murdered and didn't get a response. They didn't get a response for a while, and didn't know that it's pretty rare for an ahelp to be responded too, especially if it's about antag status. (Their forum account was like a week old when they posted that thread, they were new.) Efrem then took it upon themself to change their ckey display to "FazbeusSmellsLikeSkunkVomit" which could, theoretically, be funny if they were close and both understand that it was a joke, but this was from a position of authority in a video game with no outside context and was hurtful. In that thread, it was acknowledged that this wasn't cool, but the specific quote was...
Quote:Second, we mostly agreed that Efrem should not have changed his display name to insult you. I do not condone his behavior.
There's no apology in there, it's from someone other than Efrem, and mostly? That implies that there was admins who thought it was perfectly fine, which is honestly concerning. New players being insulted for not understanding what is rather unique to us isn't wonderful.
https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid...ight=Efrem
This is another similar issue, where someone was adminwhoing, didn't know it made an admin message of some kind (literally I didn't know that until very recently, and I have 600+ hours in this game) and had done it multiple times in a short span. That's incredibly harmless. Efrem than responded to this by admin-killing the player (wtf!), respawning them in medbay, and then filling them to the brim with mercury, killing them without recourse. They also got their name changed to #1Adminwhoer. The player ahelps, asking for clarification and I'm just going to post the logs the player did because that's easier.
Quote:HELP: You: Pretty sure an Efrem randomly killed and respawned me in medbay, then when I was checking adminwho to see who was messing with me they changed my name to "#1 Adminwhoer" and then killed me again but without respawning me. So, what's this about exactly?
Efrem: didn't kill you. i did put mercury in you and change your name though, mostly because i saw you adminwhoing a bunch
Efrem: i guess if the mercury killed you then i did kill you. would you like a respawn?
Me: Why though?
Efrem: oh wait. i did do the other one. and because you KEEP DOING IT
Me: Is adminwho bad in some way?
Efrem: why do you feel compelled to do it more than once in a 2 minute period? it's just annoying. i relayed my annoyance. you're alive. feel free to yell at me to put you back to normal
After that point I stopped replying as I wasn't going to be talked to like that and treated like a toy for his amusement, so I came here to write this post. I don't know if he was intoxicated or something but I'm very well aware that this was not a one-off case and many other players have been victim to this kind of behaviour from Efrem, some have written posts here about it, so here's mine.
Efrem starts off by lying about admin-killing, then admits it and deflects, trying to re-direct the attention onto the adminwhoing. The last thing I'd like to point out about this case, and arguably the most indicative of the poor behaviour, was the admin response. (If the image doesn't upload properly, you can see it in the link or through the imgur link here: https://imgur.com/a/ZTBdT3K)
This was disrespectful and honestly, childish. Instead of taking responsibility and owning up to their actions, Efrem tried to turn it into a joke and brush it off. Own your fuck-ups, not "I deserve to be BANNED for being a DILDO about ADMINWHO."
Lastly, I'd like to talk about a personal case of minor over-escalation. I really don't want to rehash this, it's just a situation where I have a lot of information about it, so I think it's prudent to discuss it. In short, I was playing scientist and research was pretty quiet, I was mostly doing my own thing. Well into the round, I get hungry and order food, and when it arrives I walked into a corner or locker or something and logged off, without cryoing. This was obviously a fuck-up on my part, I should have taken the time to walk down to cryo and put myself in there and all that. I logged back in and I'd been turned into biomatter, which was a little strange, so I OOC'd at round-end (when I re-joined) about it. Fortunately, the ban appeal contains the quote, which was as follows.
Quote:I went afk and I came back to have been reclaimedThe round then starts up, and lo and behold I've rolled captain. I start getting set up for the round, picking out a fit, and all that, when a minor personal emergency comes up. Nothing serious, but it required immediate attention, and the game fully slipped my mind. I shut my laptop, scramble out of the house, and get it sorted. The next day, when I logged back in, I come to see a perma-ban to forums. Obviously, I should not have left the round, it definitely impacted everyone else's experience, and was a super uncool thing I've never done since.
However, again, it was done rather poorly. The "rule" broken was under Things to Keep in Mind and has generally been sort of a courteous thing, rather than a strict requirement. The ban message also focused on the message which was, to quote a wonderful book, mostly harmless. Overall, it was a screw-up, but a minor one in the grand scheme of things, and likely could have been handled with a "hey please remember to hit f1 before leaving because otherwise it can fuck up the round for a lot of people, ty" and that would have gotten the message through.
Leaving the specifics behind, since I think (hope?) it's enough to make the point, I want to discuss general admin conduct. There are a few patterns I personally have noticed, and I believe the sentiment is mirrored by others.
First, specifically with new players, there's a pattern of hostility that can lead to them feeling alienated from the game. I remember an admin talking about how only an extremely tiny number of players will appeal bans, especially ones that are "bans to forum". Of course, I don't have the numbers, but that's concerning. Every time a player is banned for something that they didn't understand or didn't know was a rule (which was literally demonstrated above in very clear terms) is going to lose the opportunity to become a productive and awesome member of this community, and instead, move on to another free game. This also extends beyond bans! I just saw Efrem insulting a brand-new player for their typing style in discord (read for yourself: https://discord.com/channels/18224996089...7365283941). This isn't cool! That's alienating, someone from a position of authority just told you to "type like a normal human being" instead of sending you useful resources and advice to get started. Being cognizant of the fact that most people who are playing their first handful of games aren't going to care enough to create a forum account, get it approved, then make a detailed ban appeal discussing their flaws, and wait for it to be accepted is important; and while yes, that dick who just wrote out every slur known to humankind isn't going to be a great loss, someone who adminwhos, or afks, or literally is asking how to play the game is not a bad person! In short, it's expected that admins give new players both the benefit of the doubt and basic respect. If that doesn't happen, they leave, and we lose a unique voice and possible contributor to this incredible community.
Second, the ends do not justify the means. We need to stop excusing shitty admin responses just because the player did something bad. The issue is not the escalation, it's the over-escalation. I've read many, many of these admin feedback posts and ban appeals relating to Efrem, and basically, every time stuff gets called out, the admin responding (be it Efrem or someone on behalf of them) uses a comment on the person complaining or some similar justification to soften the blow. This justification is generally legitimate and honest but detracts from the "apology" (in quotes because this is trying to encompass statements like, "we thought the actions were unprofessional", which aren't designed to be apologies). "Sorry, but..." isn't a good apology, and owning up means owning that within the context of the situation, the actions of the admin were bad. "Sorry, but you did say the admin was malding, or "sorry, but you shouldn't say 'sorry you feel that way'", or "sorry but they are also a problem player" isn't good enough, and clearly isn't enough accountability. Either decide that the handling of the incident was unprofessional, and that it ought to be corrected for the future, or decide that it was okay to escalate in the way that it happened, because of the player's history (or whatever else) and leave it at that. The only exception to this would be cases where the person's complaint itself was problematic (such as, I suppose, the "malding" case, that was a poor example) in which case it's fine to address that there.
Third, and most importantly, do not address these issues individually. I have spent an absurd amount of time (and even more procrastinating) working on putting together these issues, which have each been handled individually. This is not an individual issue, none of these problems are massive, glaring issues on their own, this is a consistent pattern of mild to moderate over-escalation and hostility, leading to over-arching problems. I do not want one issue within this post to be pulled out and sliced up to try and show how Efrem wasn't that bad in that situation. As admins say, this is the "straw that broke the camel's back".
Lastly, to address the other posters in this thread. Please don't try to take this over with whatever other issue you had with an admin. If this is a direct case of Efrem, specifically, over-escalating or acting inappropriately in a way that fits with these other cases, and you are willing to write out a detailed description of those events, that is fine. Anything else can have its own admin feedback thread. Thank you for working to keep this clear, Emily.