Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it!

[Mordent]

ive been thinking about this topic again lately, and thinking about belt hell

i like belt hell, i really do. its great flavor. every unsafe hellhole, as space station 13 is, needs places where people can fall in and get mangled and belt hell is great for this while also nominally serving a credible utility purpose

but lets be honest with each other, belt hell is not and never has been really mechanically necessary for moving crates. cargo transporters and their pads have been around for fuckin ever. belt hell, and the forklift, and cargo golfcart things, are not some kind of backbone features of the entire game that deserve to have sweeping changes made to basic movement mechanics for their sake

At this point, I really do think the playerbase is a secondary concern. The coders seem so disconnected from the people who actually play nowadays that I'm not sure we're actually talking about the same game anymore.

You people are really blowing this out of proportion. Again.

[Maegor]

Perhaps this thread should be locked and if someone has an actual complaint about the pull change let them create a new thread.

At this point, I really do think the playerbase is a secondary concern. The coders seem so disconnected from the people who actually play nowadays that I'm not sure we're actually talking about the same game anymore.

Stop trying to create drama.

[Musketman12]

I will dislike this change until the end of time however I have already complained about it so i'm not sure there's much else we can do unless coders have change of heart.

[Ed Venture]

At this point, I really do think the playerbase is a secondary concern. The coders seem so disconnected from the people who actually play nowadays that I'm not sure we're actually talking about the same game anymore.

This is honestly how I feel nowadays as well.

But at least after a few months after most of the community stated their disdain for this change they listened and toned it down. It aint going anywhere, so it's time to stop trying to get it removed. I also don't think the topic should be closed. People who wish to state how they dislike this change should have this thread to do so. Don't censor them. We were given permission to have a general discussion at the start of the thread.

[misto]

im not blowing anything out of proportion, mordent, im giving accurate and realistic feedback based on my gameplay experience over the past little while, please read carefully.

a poorly thought out change to encourage the use of belts/forklifts and to supposedly nerf antags has fundamentally changed the flow of player interaction in violent scenarios.

a slight inconvenience to stealth/abductor antags has been an absolute buff to rampage antags.

where a murderer might drag off one person to kill, a crewman might also drag an ally to salvation. now there is no rescuing someone from a rampage and patching them up and trying to arm up and concoct a plan to take him on together, because a killer will jog up behind your slowed down ass and slaughter you both.

if you want to nerf antags, nerf antags. or buff crew. dont do this sort of thing

[atamusvaleo]

So, what? You remove the drag penalty.

Now the murderer can just pull their victim away from you at a full sprint, never giving you the opportunity to grab the victim, fight off the assailant, etc. Heck, you may not even see the victim because the assailant sprinted off with the unconscious body before anyone could arrive in time.

If someone has a csaber and is attacking folks, you should be afraid to go drag a body away from them. Get a weapon, run off, try to disarm them, run into them shove them around, throw stuff at them to make them chase you, or whatever else. If they have a gun, you should be hesitant to run up to them and try to drag a person away. Again, there are a number of options at your disposal here.

My point here is that not always being able to save someone by dragging them away at a sprint isn't really an argument against this update.

[Ed Venture]

If anything this change fixes a issue I've had with the community for YEARS. Well somewhat anyways. You want to save someone from a antag. Well then your going to have to fight back or run. I think that's a good thing. Combat is so easy in this game compared to the combat of 2009, yet till now most of the time no one would stop a rampagin antag I've even seen people just watch me kill someone and then get upset as I went for them. I hate to say it but get good. Disarm the dude, take his weapon and chase him off or kill him. Or decide what's more important. Saving a person or stopping the antag. Then start wondering if those two choices are one and the same.

Since this change has happen I've seen people start to fight back against rampaging antags more and more instead of standing around whining about them. It's such a good thing to see again. Which has also made being a antag challenging for me again. I even had a few players outwit me while I was doing a cloak rampage and they had no tools to see me. They set a trap for me and killed me. It made me so happy.


Stop standing around just watching as people rampage. You want to save lives? Then start fighting back.

[Frank_Stein]

ive been thinking about this topic again lately, and thinking about belt hell

i like belt hell, i really do. its great flavor. every unsafe hellhole, as space station 13 is, needs places where people can fall in and get mangled and belt hell is great for this while also nominally serving a credible utility purpose

but lets be honest with each other, belt hell is not and never has been really mechanically necessary for moving crates. cargo transporters and their pads have been around for fuckin ever. belt hell, and the forklift, and cargo golfcart things, are not some kind of backbone features of the entire game that deserve to have sweeping changes made to basic movement mechanics for their sake

Since the worms seem to be back out of the can already, I'm going to say Misto has a point there.

I'm 100% for the movement changes, and really enjoy how it's changed game feel and hit and run kidnappings/thefts. I agree that long distance cargo transport isn't something that should be done by hand.

But the existing structures need improvement. It helps that we're playing on Cog1 more now, because I feel the belt hell infrastructure is designed better there since it's in the middle of that station rather than the outside.

Cargo pads are as good as they'll ever be. The MULE should be retired IMO.

Carts are where I'd like to see things go, because I feel there's a lot of unrealized potential there. Consider how much customization you can put into pods, that's the direction I would like to see carts go.

There's also the possibility of marrying telescience to cargo, and using the teleporter as a transport system, which I think would be equally interesting.

[misto]

you want to encourage fighting back, venture? maybe we could experiment with a general buff to disarm intent, the best way to fight back with minimal prep time, because all a bit of prep time gets you is a wimpy zipgun thats a liability to your own wellbeing or a flamethrower that gets you chased down by beepsky. but that might just devolve every fight into disarm slapfights

[Ed Venture]

you want to encourage fighting back, venture? maybe we could experiment with a general buff to disarm intent, the best way to fight back with minimal prep time, because all a bit of prep time gets you is a wimpy zipgun thats a liability to your own wellbeing or a flamethrower that gets you chased down by beepsky. but that might just devolve every fight into disarm slapfights

Fighting back has already been encouraged. I did not say I wanted this change to encourage fighting back I said it already had and quite clearly as well. I feel for you though man as I too do not like how hard it is to save people from space exposure, but everything else I feel is fine. But like the fact that people try to fight antags now. If you have trouble fighting people learn how to make chems and buff yourself or make Chemical weapons or keep trying. I've said before that I believe that Chemistry exist to counter robust players.

I can't sit here and hold your hand on how to be robust. You just got to try. It's that simple.

Also Beepsky is easy to deal with. Ask the AI to turn it off, kill it or never stop moving. Beepsky can't stun you unless you stand still.

[ferriswheel1]

ive been thinking about this topic again lately, and thinking about belt hell

i like belt hell, i really do. its great flavor. every unsafe hellhole, as space station 13 is, needs places where people can fall in and get mangled and belt hell is great for this while also nominally serving a credible utility purpose

but lets be honest with each other, belt hell is not and never has been really mechanically necessary for moving crates. cargo transporters and their pads have been around for fuckin ever. belt hell, and the forklift, and cargo golfcart things, are not some kind of backbone features of the entire game that deserve to have sweeping changes made to basic movement mechanics for their sake

Since the worms seem to be back out of the can already, I'm going to say Misto has a point there.

I'm 100% for the movement changes, and really enjoy how it's changed game feel and hit and run kidnappings/thefts. I agree that long distance cargo transport isn't something that should be done by hand.

But the existing structures need improvement. It helps that we're playing on Cog1 more now, because I feel the belt hell infrastructure is designed better there since it's in the middle of that station rather than the outside.

Cargo pads are as good as they'll ever be. The MULE should be retired IMO.

Carts are where I'd like to see things go, because I feel there's a lot of unrealized potential there. Consider how much customization you can put into pods, that's the direction I would like to see carts go.

There's also the possibility of marrying telescience to cargo, and using the teleporter as a transport system, which I think would be equally interesting.

I agree with all of these points except removing the MULE, 'cause I think MULEs are kinda cool. Transport systems need to be improved, sure, but I think that we first need things of actual value to transport. Improving the variety and usefulness of cargo's orders would make transport systems see more use.

QM is probably one of the least-played jobs in the game, largely due to the fact that almost NOTHING they can order has any real value to other departments. Resource bloat means that almost any resource QM could order is within arm's reach of most crew members, and
the unique resources they have aren't much to write home about.

QM and resource availability need a revamp before transport systems, otherwise you'll end up with improved transports that people still don't use.

[misto]

if mule is retired it should be memorialized by being made into a monster like yetis, space bears, etc. only it runs ppl over instead of eating them

[Nnystyxx]

MULE needs to be retired if it remains completely fucking worthless due to its AI calculation stopping it every 2 tiles

[NateTheSquid]

Why is George so slow to pull? I'm around dogs all the time and dogs aren't that hard to pull, especially comparatively with all the other shit these spessmen are pulling. make a collar that makes him faster to pull, and then a lead that makes him not walk off while you are pulling him with it, or at least less so

[Noah Buttes]

I didn't want to say anything more on this thread, but pulling a BEE slows you down a little bit! They're floating and adorable! Why do they slow us?!