Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it!

[Noah Buttes]

As an individual who hasn't played since October, I'm honestly reconsidering even bothering to start playing again because of this change.

It just seems so incredibly unwieldy, and I can't really think of a good reason to justify this change for anything other than bulky non-wheeled non-hovering non-people objects.

Even then it seems like the change wasn't worth the sacrifice.


I have yet to play test it, but I don't think my opinion will change very much.

[lambskin]

People said the same thing about the new stamina system, and yet we have plenty of people (myself included) who felt that it was a nice change. While I think this change is rather silly and changes certain meta aspects of the game it's still the same old goonstation. Still, when people where saying that there would be code changes to help security out I really didn't expect this lol.

[Maegor]

Corpses need to be adjusted, It is faster for you to throw the corpse around than drag it

EDIT: Nevermind this forgot about the port a med

[Grayshift]

Time to address this.

Why was this change made?
Two major impacts.
1. Crates and lockers render the other transportation options on the station pointless, which is sad because the other transportation options are fun. One of the really cool selling points of Cogmap2 was the belt-hell system cutting across major hallways. Belt hell isn't used because just running a crate across the station, lightning-fast error-free and pinpoint to destination, is better. Mulebots are great to see trucking across the station and maybe run over an assistant or two. The forklift is neat to see. The cargo tugs are fun to hitch rides on or hijack. Even the cargo transporter causes sparks that can trigger accidental fires or set off fuel tanks.

All these fun things don't get used because pulling crates/lockers is perfect. I did not think it was possible to improve any of these transport methods to the point that they'd be preferable to the standard method, much less all of them. The cargo teleporter is instantaneous and it still doesn't get used. So pulling speed had to be nerfed in addition to working kinks out of the fun methods. Consider exactly what it would take to get you, personally, to use any one of these, in preference to the old pull speed.

2. Dragging people. Keeping someone stunned with a baton/flash and shanking them with a fork while eluding sec, all at a full speed sprint, isn't great gameplay. Even if you call out "LING STUNG ME BAR" the changeling has bolted out an airlock with you in tow before the AI or sec have finished reading the line. Or the assistant who unscrews the nuke and vanishes into the ether in an eyeblink with it while the syndies are distracted for a split second.

It's a change that cuts both ways. Antagonists will find themselves having to choose between retaining a victim or making a getaway instead of both, but pulling people out of danger will take longer too. To alleviate some of that, the teleporting sleeper Port-A-Med (which is not the Port-A-NanoMed) has been brought back. Security already has a Port-A-Brig.

Why didn't you ask the players before making this change?
Because it's a nerf. It's not a thing to expect positive reactions to, even when it's a good idea. The will and drive to code is a fleeting thing, easily quashed by opposition. People resist change by default, and this is not some cool new toy to get excited about. It's a nerf.

Is this just some added realism thing, because that is stupid.
No. Realism is and will never will be a goal in this farty spaceman simulator, because realism is tedium. The change was made for gameplay reasons, and it's just a nice coincidence that it lines up with what intuition would suggest happens.

What's up in the future?
Planned changes: Dragging an upright person who is on help intent will go full speed as it will be assumed consensual. Further refinements to the other transportation methods, like the Mulebot changes. Good suggestions in this thread or #goonstation.

Why is dragging tiny thing not fast, tiny thing is tiny!
1. Dragspeed for most things you can pick up is now almost indistinguishable from full speed.
2. Do an experiment. Put a screwdriver on the ground and try dragging it. Moving backwards and bent over double, making sure that the tiny thing leaves most of its weight on the ground. It's not fast.
3. Pick it up, doofus.

And if all else fails...
You can still PUSH things at a decent clip. It's just kind of awkward to have to open doors for your crate.

[misto]

Ok how do you suggest we make those items better?

forklifts could afford to be a little quicker but otherwise have ok functionality, since they can carry crate stacks. could also stand to be a couple spare ones parked around in various maints and storerooms



the cargo tractor golfcart things is not very good, most of its utility is in those things it pulls. its cute for cruising around if youre bored but generally not practical. i guess it could work alright as a sort of ambulance, because you can load ppl directly into the pulled cart and drive off but cant pick ppl up with a forklift, but the forklift remains much more attractive for raw crate moving. again, a speed boost would help make it more attractive. as for making it more practical for crate carrying, i dunno, can its pulled carts carry stacks of crates like the forklift can? might help a little




mulebots have the most potential for improvement, imo.

1. mulebots should send an alert to dept. pdas when they drop off something in that dept.

2. mulebots deliver to a few generalized, non-secure, and often not-readily-visible locations. more specificity, security, and visibility in where they haul to would be beneficial

3. ideally id love mulebots to be able to zero in on a person's location to deliver the cargo right into their arms but this could become excessively dangerous if they were hacked to be made faster and unsafe, making them into hunter killer homing crushmobiles

4. since they default to picking up stuff on dropoff, a more spacious dropoff/pickup parking lot in each delivery location might be beneficial, but the mulebots seem very simpleminded and might not be able to adapt to this easily

5. they have limited battery life. this is no issue currently given how rarely theyre used. but if they do see more use they will eventually stop dead and probably be forgotten and written off along with their cargo, wedged into and blocking some hallway in the ass end of nowhere. give them recharging stations and recharge protocols similar to guardbuddies perhap, or just unlimited powercell, or whatever

simple and direct ways to repair or replace broken mulebot homing/navigation beacons




belt hell outlets and cargo transporter telepads should alert the relevant workplace pdas when something arrives. ie roboticist and med director pdas would be alerted when something pops onto the robotics telepad, security and command pdas should be alerted when something comes off the security belt hell outlet

fairly simple and accessible ways to replace/repair broken/destroyed conveyor belts and shit to keep these services running

fairly simple and accessible ways to replace/repair broken/destroyed cargo telepads to keep these services running



oh yeah, and theres one more crate transport system, right? that weird tube thing that feeds between mining and qm, you can drop crates into that and it shoots them off under the floor like how disposals pipes work. keep an eye out for spots where more of these systems might be appropriate, but i have to say that disposals type pipes are quite vulnerable to being busted open and going unrepaired forever

OH YEAH ONE MOOORE thing

since the in-person traders in their little shuttles or shifty d-9 or whoever the fuck tp things in onto their own little personal telepads, maybe you could like pay them extra to have them tp it in in a supply cart rather than a crate. i know youre usually not buying shit from them if youre in a rush or anything but still

HMMM YEAH OK THATS ALL I GOT FOR NOW< YOUR WELCOME FOR ALL THIS GOOD FEEDBACK FROM THE GENIUS OF IDEAS, MISTO

[Ed Venture]

Thank you for explaining your reasoning why. My concerns with Security and the port-a-brig still stand I fear and what will you do if most refuse to use the things you are trying to force on them? Do you make those things better, revert the nerf or a mix of both?

---

For the record I am open to change but will always be resistant to things that force me to play a certain way and force me to use things I did not really need. Should lead to some good changes to security though so that's good. All these issues (except for how fast players could drag each other) seem to be a result of cogmap2 as well. Shame we all had to get nerfed because of it. I guess that's another reason to look forward to map rotation.

---

This will also make the role of Changeling harder for me as well as I always thought it was the easiest Antag role to master. I'm pretty excited for the upcoming balance changes this is going to bring to the table though so that's something to look forward to. I feel super sorry for the Vampire role though I might just take that off my rotation list for a bit now.

[babayetu83]

why not make the fun things that go unused better instead of compromising the quality of other things

[medsal15]

Add wheels to bypass the change. Cheap, when sold, but rare.

[Ed Venture]

why not make the fun things that go unused better instead of compromising the quality of other things

I agree and have said this lots of times but I think they are going to see how this change pans out. We just got to wait and see but I totally agree with you on that.

[Frank_Stein]

Yeah, the speeds of all the cargo vehicles needs to be upped, preferably to a faster than walking pace.

Like I said earlier, having variable speed with faster=riskier would be nice. Carts never got the love they needed, and I think nows their time to shine. Maybe even convert one of the podbays into a motorpool

Some other new item options:

• Dollies and hand trucks - wheel them over to a crate, load the crate on, and then wheel them to where it's needed. Probably best to put one of these in every belt delivery dock?
  
• Powered exosuits - a battery powered exoskeleton that amplifies lifting power when activated at the cost of battery power. Pop the battery out to recharge it. Maybe the good mining armor ought to do this too?
  

[CameronWoof]

Feedback on the alternative transport methods:
 

• MULEBot - Not an option for 90% of the station, as they're located in QM
  
• Cargo Forklift - See above
  
• Cargo Tug - See above, except it's in the HoP's office
  
• Belt Hell - Inaccessible to jobs without maintenance access. No public outlet; they all require departmental access afaik. 
  

All of these methods are useless to you if you're not the Quartermaster or the Head of Personnel. The reason people drag crates around is because there's no better way. If Assistant Q. Spaceman wants to fetch a crate of metal and glass sheets for Engineer B. Spaceman, the only way to do that is to drag a crate around to find materials. 

Let the record show that I'm basically fine with moving crates now but pretending that the alternatives are viable replacements is a bit silly.

[misto]

youre right cameron, i overlooked initial access concerns. mulebots are not only located in qm, but theyre controlled by a qm pda program. cargo tugs are kept in backrooms out of sight and out of mind. only one forklift, although you can sneak in to qm and teal it with a little knowhow

mechanics can replicate forklifts but theyre usually too busy printing guns or making traps

thus i reiterate my recommendation to pepper more forlifts around

and mulebots should either have infinite power like securitrons have or they need recharge stations like guardbuddies have or else they will stop dead and be forgotten when they run out of power

when conveyor belts, disposal pipes, etc. etc. are damaged and thus no longer function properly it is hard to know until it is too late and there is a pileup. perhaps sensors that pda alert engineering and mechanics to get off their asses to fix this kind of shit would be beneficial? or at least better ai camera network coverage in these locations so it can scan over to pinpoint the problem

i am sure that all these EXCELLENT GOOD SUGGESTIONS were giving will only need one or two more little lines of code to implement

[ZeWaka]

Feedback on the alternative transport methods:
 

• MULEBot - Not an option for 90% of the station, as they're located in QM
  
• Cargo Forklift - See above
  

I have listened to the community and put a forklift and MULE somewhere in the station that is not QM

I have also increased forklifts' speed.

[poland spring]

I am super duper glad someone took the time to explain the reasoning behind the changes and they now have my full support because dodging flying crates is awesome. however you should add a cargo tug and forklift to belt hell/undelivered mailroom because I think the mailman should have more transport options than anyone else besides QM

[Ed Venture]

Following that thought if the mailman becomes a Normal Job again I would support that. The Job should be able to work with the goals of this change.