Allow Ghosts to See AI Laws Through Upload Computer/Verb

[Roomba]

Honestly I've never really liked having deadchat knowledge being completely fine to use once you're back on your feet. It's always irked me that a guy popping out of the cloner and hollering 'X IS A LING GET 'IM' or quietly loading up on weaponry to finish said task themselves suffers no repercussions for doing so, whereas having to take active measures against that guy being revived is metagrudging and specifically against the rules. I've always felt admins who came down on the 'deadchat knowledge is completely fine' side are kind of spoiled by having all in-game info available to them.

That said, I can see how that stuff would be hard to police on an admin level, so I suppose the current ruling is fine, but in turn I think ghosts shouldn't have access to all that much abuseable metaknowledge as a result - it's fairly easy to set up in-game communication methods with ghosts that allow people to gain all the knowledge of deadchat without breaking a single rule. All this is a long-winded way to say 'no', I suppose.

(also I can't help but notice most of the people most in favour of this idea are the type most likely to quietly take advantage of said feature as often as possible.)

[Lady Birb]

whereas having to take active measures against that guy being revived is metagrudging and specifically against the rules.

I thought metagruging was acting on something that happened in a previous round. I don't see how actively working to stop someone from being revived would be metagruging, especially considering you can permanently stop someone from being revived through methods as simple as throwing the body in the crusher. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Sundance]

I thought metagruging was acting on something that happened in a previous round. I don't see how actively working to stop someone from being revived would be metagruging, especially considering you can permanently stop someone from being revived through methods as simple as throwing the body in the crusher. Correct me if I am wrong.

You are not wrong. Acting in a manner to put someone out of the game permanently as a traitor is not seen as meta. I would 9/10 use trick cigs to dispose of corpses and/or blow up the cloner. It's not even meta as a non-traitor, just a bit griefy. Then again I come from a time when you'd beg the chef didn't get your corpse.
Really this is a bit blown out of proportion. Just a tad. Seeing the AI laws as DNR and making that abusable you have to fall into these various factors:
1. You have an active audience, i.e: Another ghost.
2. That other ghost is in position of being cloned (read: Cloned not borged)
3. That cloned person is in any capablity to actually inact his revenge, or if he really cares at all.
4. Following on from that, if he just screams onto the radio it falls into 3 situations:
A) The crew already knows, if an ai has murdered more than one player, another screaming bloody murder wont matter.
B) The crew doesn't know, but has no obligition to listen to the player after he's found out his info from another ghost.
C) The person may not even know the laws of the AI and can still scream bloody murder and the crew would be up in arms

[Zafhset]

You're discounting the lengths to which some people could go to abuse in-game mechanics. As discussed in another "let ghosts do X" thread, anyone can just kill themselves and tell their metagaming pals all about it on any medium.

Sure, you could say these situations would be rare. But I think that if a minimally beneficial feature (in my opinion) that serves to add little to in-game rounds (aside from ghost convenience) potentially ruins/affects round for some antags when it occurs, it is already one round too many.

edit: I do appreciate it when coders invest their personal time to add new stuff; I just don't quite agree that this one is necessary.

[Roomba]

There's a different cachet between a guy going 'AI ROGUE I DUNNO WHY BUT I HAVE A HUNCH' over the radio and a guy going 'Hey, I just popped out of the cloner, and James Jefferson just onehumaned himself. I know this for a fact because I had 100% knowledge of it as a ghost, and as you all know, ghosts have perfectly accurate knowledge of the AI laws.' As Zafhset mentions, people will go to ridiculous lengths to bend the unwritten rules to their breaking point, and until that is no longer an issue (it will never not be) the least we can do is to limit the knowledge of the people who do so. Every time there's an edge case scenario like this, it always ends up benefiting powergamers who abuse it simply because they're the only ones dedicated enough to keep pushing it without going over the line, right up until the point where it becomes to egregious to ignore, a process which can take literal years.

[ZeWaka]

Every time there's an edge case scenario like this, it always ends up benefiting powergamers who abuse it simply because they're the only ones dedicated enough to keep pushing it without going over the line, right up until the point where it becomes to egregious to ignore, a process  which can take literal years.

This is why both the sploded clause exists and Rule 10: "This is not an exhaustive list. Rules-lawyering is STRONGLY discouraged. If an admin asks you to knock something off, 'well it's not in the rules' is not really an argument. If you feel this rule is being abused, please feel absolutely free to make use of the Admin Complaints forum - we won't punish you for posting a complaint."

[Superlagg]

And then you build a contraption to automatically inject your body with SR several minutes after you choke yourself out to go ghost-spy on bad guys.

[Ultimate Shrek Fan]

And then you build a contraption to automatically inject your body with SR several minutes after you choke yourself out to go ghost-spy on bad guys.

This is already a thing. Injector belt, yo.

[Roomba]

This is why both the sploded clause exists and Rule 10: "This is not an exhaustive list. Rules-lawyering is STRONGLY discouraged. If an admin asks you to knock something off, 'well it's not in the rules' is not really an argument. If you feel this rule is being abused, please feel absolutely free to make use of the Admin Complaints forum - we won't punish you for posting a complaint."

That's a line of thought that's mentioned a lot and invoked very rarely - I'm sure most people can probably name two or three active players that qualify off the top of their heads right now. In almost all cases like this, it usually ends up with the abuseable feature removed rather than the offending player, so why not nip this one in the bud and just not have the abuseable feature in the first place?

E: there are literally people brainstorming ways to abuse it right now, here in this thread (presumably jokingly, but I'm sure more than one person is going to quietly see if that actually works later on)

[ZeWaka]

In almost all cases like this, it usually ends up with the abuseable feature removed rather than the offending player, so why not nip this one in the bud and just not have the abuseable feature in the first place?

Because it's absolutely shit and bonkers to remove a good feature in the game because someone abuses it. Nor do people set DNR often, so it's not like this is going to pop up often. If it does and you think someone is abusing it, adminhelp it like always and an admin will look at the case.

[Houka]

And then you build a contraption to automatically inject your body with SR several minutes after you choke yourself out to go ghost-spy on bad guys.

Having tried to do this exact thing, you just instantly gib if you try to revive yourself like this. Your body has to be in critical condition for you to succumb, which means you're too damaged for SR to work by default, so you just pop like a lit fart-filled balloon. There's another way to do this but it is in no way an easily abused method.

As for the argument on how ghosts would use the information against AIs and traitors and what have you... there are reasons why you should dispose of corpses as a bad guy and these are the very reasons for doing so. It's not 'abuse' when someone that got cloned gets the chance to point the finger at the assailant. It is just plain sloppy to let this happen if you're a competent baddy.

This is no different than observing someone to see if they have traitor loot in their pockets, or eavesdropping on whisper conversations with a traitor and his mindslave, or listening in on cyborg chat, or whatever. It will not create this glaring flaw in the way the game works because the people that abuse this stuff abuse the other things that grant them this very information anyways.

I just want it so I have some information about why the rust buckets just caved my skull in, so I don't have to waste admin time with an adminhelp message, so I can go 'oh, they really were evil and not shit, OK' and go on with my day without worrying about it further.

Let's just back the fuck up off the idea that this is bad just because a handful of jerks will abuse it. This isn't the next QGP/nitro/grog-gib-cocktail. This is a quality of life improvement for people that have been taken out of a game already. This will not alter the flow of the game that much. People can already infer that cyborgs might be rogue without a direct view at their laws.

[Frank_Stein]

At the very least, you oughta be able to tell whether they are on default laws or if they have additional laws, with or without getting to see what those laws actually are

[Mageziya]

And then you build a contraption to automatically inject your body with SR several minutes after you choke yourself out to go ghost-spy on bad guys.

Having tried to do this exact thing, you just instantly gib if you try to revive yourself like this. Your body has to be in critical condition for you to succumb, which means you're too damaged for SR to work by default, so you just pop like a lit fart-filled balloon. There's another way to do this but it is in no way an easily abused method.

Put omnizine in the injector belt, along with something like 0.1 units of SR. That should work.

[Ed Venture]

I got to say the people here who were for this idea have made a good argument on why this would be okay and not really change anything. So I'm changing my input from being Against it to not really caring one way or another.

[amaranthineApocalypse]

And then you build a contraption to automatically inject your body with SR several minutes after you choke yourself out to go ghost-spy on bad guys.

Having tried to do this exact thing, you just instantly gib if you try to revive yourself like this. Your body has to be in critical condition for you to succumb, which means you're too damaged for SR to work by default, so you just pop like a lit fart-filled balloon. There's another way to do this but it is in no way an easily abused method.

Doesn't it only gib you if you have 400+ damage of burn and brute combined? Or if you're rotten? if you were to suffocate to death you would be absolutely fine, add PFD to your mix then suicide via breathholding and you should come back fine. In theory.