I need to reiterate: I enjoy the powerstruggle between the captain and the HoS. It feels natural and I feel like we pin point down; "THIS IS HOW ITS DONE", it goes against the nature of goon.
I don't expect security to mindlessly follow the HoS' orders. Nor do I expect them to follow the Captains. Neither of them fall out of security as a whole's remit. The captain is fully entitled to demand the arrest of the HoS and I've been in rounds where security turned on me. And you know that shit's great, it's enjoyable as heck.
I also feel like you're coming from the perspective that the Captain doesn't get away with alot of shit already. He has an all access ID and a gun and sometimes an attitude. He's also not held to the same standard as the HoS at all. I've lost count where the Captain has done shit I am not in favor with but I let it slide because "fuck it it's the Captain"
We're applying real world rules to unreal situations without the real world considerations. It's really silly.
We're on a science station owned by a corporate entity. In the real world, if a captain doesn't own their ship, they have rules to follow to keep them from interfering with the purpose and operation of their ship. In these cases, if a captain breaks these rules, then they are relieved of their command.
We don't have those because they aren't fun. That's what I meant by a captain not being a king; they're an employee. The (non-ai) laws set by NTHQ override any laws set by a captain. A captain can still get arrested and relieved of command. This can even happen to the POTUS, so yeah.
The real issue you bring up isn't one of authority, as most reasonable people agree that the Cap stands over the HoS, but the meta responsibilities of one held above the measure of others.
(09-29-2016, 01:35 PM)UrsulaMejor Wrote: The traditional order has been Cap -> HoP -> HoS -> MD/CE -> RD
MD, CE, and RD are all equal. If the Captain, HoP, and HoS are all dead/missing then their is no explicit head, and they need to come to agreement amongst themselves. If they can't... well, tough.
(09-29-2016, 01:52 PM)Vitatroll Wrote: We're applying real world rules to unreal situations without the real world considerations. It's really silly.
We're on a science station owned by a corporate entity. In the real world, if a captain doesn't own their ship, they have rules to follow to keep them from interfering with the purpose and operation of their ship. In these cases, if a captain breaks these rules, then they are relieved of their command.
We don't have those because they aren't fun. That's what I meant by a captain not being a king; they're an employee. The (non-ai) laws set by NTHQ override any laws set by a captain. A captain can still get arrested and relieved of command. This can even happen to the POTUS, so yeah.
The real issue you bring up isn't one of authority, as most reasonable people agree that the Cap stands over the HoS, but the meta responsibilities of one held above the measure of others.
I feel as if I don't even need to post my opinion, since you sum it all up nicely for me.
I feel like you're definitely trying to make it into a hard and fast rule, Ursula - something that can be definitively pointed to in an argument so you can authoritatively declare 'No, This is what The Rules say, so this is how it's going to be done'. I'm not saying that's a bad approach - heaven knows I'd appreciate solid clarifications on a few other similar topics - but on a matter like this, it seems doomed to failure. The crew's practically 50/50 split - clown aside - is a pretty clear indicator that ultimately the situation on the ground boils down to the people involved in that particular matter at the time.
Even in the clear-cut examples you give, there are times in which I would feel the Captain is in the right, and others when the HOS is in the right. In neither case would I especially involve myself in the matter unless I was obligated to do so. If you make it a hard and fast rule, you're saying 'okay, from now on, whenever such situations arise, one side is Definitely Right, and the other is Definitely Wrong', no matter how loose the rule is. That takes away from the spirit of the thing, I feel.
I've always felt that the chain of command is nothing more than a suggestion, especially since the job of Captain has been described (especially in the something awful thread) as nothing more than a staff assistant with all access. There are very few RP requirements on LLJK 2, so making a big deal over this seems silly.
If there's anyone that i don't trust, it'd be the CE. I swear every time i encounter that guy he either a traitor, a jerk, or fucked off into space / the crusher without even touching the engine. And he's best geared to hold the shuttle hostage until the engine wins the game or someone telefrags him in his office.
I think my point is that this whole argument is kinda coming from the wrong frame of mind. I don't care who is in charge and my reasons for obeying what they tell me to do are selfish and largely irrational. Whoever is the most entertaining and isn't a blatant murderer is the one in charge and in the right for what they do as far as I'm concerned.
I take back what I said earlier, This whole argument is pretty pointless, This is an incredibly situational thing, and other than the captain generally staying out of secs business(They can still ask nicely for certain things to be done) when there's an HOS, This whole damn thing has been blown out of proportion.
If the Captain is being a reasonable captain and not being a shitter/traitor, They're in charge of the station and can ask the HOS to prioritize certain things(doesn't mean they'll actually get prioritized, as is the case with any other head.)
The HOS is free to use their own discretion as to whether the captain is fit for duty and wether or not to actually follow their orders. Within standard reasoning and how closely they choose to follow space law.
So while the whole Captain/HoS is definitely more ambiguous than I thought it was before, I do want to point out that HoS v HoP is less so in absence of the Captain:
http://wiki.ss13.co/Head_of_Personnel
"The Head of Personnel is in charge of administrative tasks on the station and is second in command to the Captain, unless there is an active Head of Security."
Mostly unrelated, but I've always thought of the HoS as the person NTHQ put on station in case the 'experiment' went south and the 'dish' needed to be 'cleaned' for the next attempt.
" ' "
I could say the same about the Clown, really. They're in cahoots, I say!
Goonhub
![[Image: 16x36sl.png]](https://i.imgur.com/16x36sl.png)
![[Image: fcCsn8h.png]](http://i.imgur.com/fcCsn8h.png)
