Impose Austerity On Station To Improve The Game

[Nnystyxx]

If I were more proactive I'd wear sunglasses at roundstart myself, considering it takes .5 seconds bumped into a vampire to get all your blood sucked out after getting glared

EDIT: I think that we do need some more emphasis of certain ideas & game mechanics (things like QM/Cargo in general, the mail system, belt hell) before we make new ones or change them. Have crew awareness days, encourage them to use systems they didn't know were so robust. Some of our culture and shortfalls can just be a matter of ignorance, I believe.

Please make Mulebots faster, though.

[The_Rain]

I don't know, I like that there's lots of stuff on Cog2. It's kind of nice not to be totally hosed by being a late joiner.

[Nnystyxx]

I think exposing the benefits and means of cooperation, and creating more, would be better than cutting resources and making the game more punishing. I like the story of the 'survivor'. Positive reinforcement, you dig?

EDIT:

The majority of what one does (or everything, if you're a proponent of psychological egoism) is done to benefit oneself. If someone doesn't gain something from their job (fun, loot, respect, etc.) or if they find something more rewarding than their job then they'll fuck off. Dependencies just create poorstation. Instead, you should look toward creating for synergies.

This might just be my bias, since I play on times where entire departments go unstaffed. The station is quite a bit different at unprimetime.
[...]

Yes, I agree entirely with the 'synergies' bit. I like the crew having more reasons to communicate, coordinate and build rapport. Cross-interactions, reasons to talk, work together, ways to improve each other's lives (stuff like upgrading the chef's oven), gifts to give each other that aren't 100% necessary but are nice and cool to have.

[Vitatroll]

The majority of what one does (or everything, if you're a proponent of psychological egoism) is done to benefit oneself. If someone doesn't gain something from their job (fun, loot, respect, etc.) or if they find something more rewarding than their job then they'll fuck off. Dependencies just create poorstation. Instead, you should look toward creating for synergies.

This might just be my bias, since I play on times where entire departments go unstaffed. The station is quite a bit different at unprimetime.

So now for the short bit:
- Cog2 being overstocked: Not a novel idea. Lots of people in agreement with this.
- Removing windows: No. I'm with making windows a helluva lot tougher, though.
- Soviet Station: Only if we get bears on unicycles.
- Giving me a cookie: Hells yes. I'm touched that someone suggested this.

[Xeram]

What I'm gathering is that youre too stuck in the way things are and so are everyone else, so we shouldn't try to change what we see as a big problem with our server in specific because you are so much better than everyone at everything.

Maybe if people were expected/allowed to do their job they'd be good at it and not just sitting there dying a little inside when they watch a server regular bomb their way into whatever department they want so they can do that job for themselves, completely ignoring and cutting you out of the equation to the point where you wonder why you even bother.

It just makes the server regulars this big horrible monster that does everything and pushes new players around to the point where they have to be just like the old players, relying on nobody but themselves. By the time a new player has learned how to be useful, theyre using the knowledge to perpetuate the cycle once more.


In short suck it up you don't need fuckin sunglasses at round start as a staff assistant you big babies.

The issue is, people are expected and fully allowed to do their jobs as is. The issue? Literally everybody has their own agenda with their own priorities and a solid 70% of the time it involves nothing helpful for anyone but themselves. Botany is sure capable of saving the crews asses by whipping up easy access to tons of medical chems, but I've literally never seen it happen once besides the occasional accidental white weed while making LSD and exploding death tomatos mixed with potassium bomb bananas. Have we already forgotten the period too of "fuck geneticists and genetics forever" because they were allowed to do their job, and it ended up consisting of them almost solely hiding away and giving themselves mutations while corpses rotted at their front door?

Perhaps if it was like the old days where not starting the (incredibly simple) singularity engine resulted in immediate lynch mobs out for engineer blood the moment critical areas started losing power, they'd be a tad more motivated, but then we'd be back at the problem of scaring new players. All in all, it ends up creating 2 types of people when it comes to jobs, one is new and is trying to do the job, but is incapable and typically doesn't ask for help (I've watched this frustratingly many, many times.) and end up never coming back to the server typically, Or people who are competent at the job, but only use it as a means to an end for their plans, such as people playing mechanics or engineers so they can get gloves a few minutes earlier and then promptly fuck off to do adventure shit or overcharge the engine to the point it melts the west side of the station killing half the crew. Without people being independent and solving these problems that'd require help from multiple departments otherwise, the place would be fucked really damn fast.


Hell let's take that engine example. Let's say 10 minutes in the engineers have gone with their plan of trying to max out the PTL and get the hottest engine possible. The ambient temperature of the west side of the station is now measurable in the millions of Celsius. Assuming we've drastically reduced the supplies on station to the point many people from many separate places need to step in, what will it take? First and foremost, there will be tons of people rushing to medbay due to the lava-lung they have. But due to reduced medical supplies, there aren't enough burn patches to keep fixing people up and the heat is creeping down and possibly going to torch medbay lobby. Maybe robotics has even exploded from it. So medbay yells at chemistry and/or botany to please for the love of god make Silver sulf or synthflesh. Botany will take time and may be unwilling, as they have just finally perfected their prize-winning explosive tomato crop, while the chemists vanished about 5 minutes ago to go try and make/find super secret chemicals. Now things are rapidly going to shit with items catching fire and people walking into medbay and dropping dead, so they begin shuttling people off to the cloner and robotics. From my observations, robotics has 2 states. Completely empty, or fully staffed and prepared for a crisis. Let's assume the latter and people start getting hucked in and borged. A construction borg takes the module to quickly go and try and vent the hyper-heated gas while a medical one scrambles now to keep everyone from burning to death. Now the halls are no longer literally hell, but they're freezing cold and vented people suddenly need space suits to be able to navigate properly, however now that EVA has been newly secured and de-windowed, nobody but heads and engineers can reliably get suits. Adding to all this, there are antagonists running around most assuredly causing havoc elsewhere besides the literal hell that is the west side now, no doubt murdering people listed above who would be critical to helping stop this or setting the syths on a good ol robo-rampage.


Sounds like a lot of effort to fix one damn thing, and a lot of coordination on a very idealized version of the goon community. Because it is. The reality of if something like this happens with massively reduced supplies? The same thing that happens when a blob shows up. 1 or 2 people trying to solve the issue, dying, then everyone else immediately calling the shuttle and the round ends very quickly with a lot of people grumpy that their plans got interrupted by the round abruptly ending far earlier than normal.

Basically, you can't just go and suddenly shift things to try and build the game about having to rely on other departments and people in a game where the people, situation, and gear are all unreliable as hell and the only surefire solution to save yourself and others tedium and headache is to be capable of doing it yourself.

TL;DR edit since Vita basically nailed the heart of what I'm meaning:

The majority of what one does (or everything, if you're a proponent of psychological egoism) is done to benefit oneself. If someone doesn't gain something from their job (fun, loot, respect, etc.) or if they find something more rewarding than their job then they'll fuck off. Dependencies just create poorstation. Instead, you should look toward creating for synergies.

[Roomba]

I don't really like it when admins start attempting to force big sweeping changes in station culture from the top down. Not saying they can't do so, just that it rarely works out. This is starting to feel like the time admins would ban people for calling the shuttle early because they decided the one thing that was holding the station back was rounds lasting less than two hours, and then promptly denying they ever did that when it didn't work out.

[atamusvaleo]

I might just need to get used to where to get stuff now though.

Yeah, it takes time to find everything but there is an excess of toolkits and belts in the maintenance tunnels.

If the issues are accessibility (looking at you mechanic's lab, which I'm forced to turn into an unbreachable fortress every round to prevent looting) then what are our realistic options for counteracting this? What gives us a similar aesthetic without losing functionality.

Here are some options that immediately come to mind for me:
• plasma windows (look to the aviary and brig on Destiny)
• adding reinforced tables behind or in front of some windows (while this doesn't eliminate the issue it helps slow down the process, giving security time to intervene)
• adding a lockdown button to rooms for closing shutters on windows (maybe these could serve as firelocks/heatshields as well? Gone will be the days of hellfire engine burning the entire hallway by the PTL)

It's not much but it's all that comes to mind while writing this.

Now, onto some other points raised. I'd be okay with seeing almost all of the medkits removed. Instead, have empty cases spawn in medbay or be craftable in the medical fabricator. Doctors can then choose to craft medkits for general use and people can request medkits with specific chemicals from the kind doctors in medbay. (Hopefully, no traitors will be there to fill the medkits with burn patches that quite literally do just that)

What else... Drones are a nuisance in regards to people relying on other players. Part of what made playing an engineer so interesting for me, was being the cleanup crew who came in after a pipe bomb explosion to repair the ship and restore atmos to the damaged areas. Thus winning the affections of whatever depertment personnel I was assisting in the process and reaping all of the associated benefits of making these friends.

EDIT
Since the inception of assday I have been saying there should be an assbackward day with no antags and everyone has to be nice to each other. Just look at the Destiny round where we relocated the entire crew and supplies to Biodome! There was a level of cooperation that day greater than I've never seen while playing this wonderful game.

EEDDIITT
In response to Xeram's post on people having only themselves in mind:
At the risk of sounding cliché, the change starts with you and how you interact with others around you. I make it a point (as a nonantag) to always call out over the radio and ask if anyone is in need. Whether I'm an engineer or security officer. I rarely get a response but every so often someone does get that help they were desperately seeking.

[Noah Buttes]

If nothing else comes from this thread, can we make reinforced windows a helluva lot harder to break without seriously injuring yourself with flying glass shards?

[Nnystyxx]

If nothing else comes from this thread, can we make reinforced windows a helluva lot harder to break without seriously injuring yourself with flying glass shards?

Make them harder to break and make a chance that thrown stuff will bounce off and hit the thrower.
Don't make them plasma glass, 'cuz plasma glass is kind of ugly.

EDIT: Reinforcing glass seems to do very little altogether, at least to block throwing.

[Xeram]

I'd note too that, if the whole making reinforced windows actually behave like they're reinforced thing goes through, make sure you make reinforced tables more buff too or it most likely will end up a moot change.

Usually the hierarchy of breaking shit goes Table>Window>Reinforced Window>Reinforced Table>Wall/Hack Door>R Wall

[Noah Buttes]

I'd note too that, if the whole making reinforced windows actually behave like they're reinforced thing goes through, make sure you make reinforced tables more buff too or it most likely will end up a moot change.

I'm still baffled as to how reinforced tables even work.

You can assemble them by hand, but you need a welder and a wrench to disassemble them. How does that work?

[Frank_Stein]

I kinda think one thing to consider is the map itself.

I don't think Cog2 has a design that's as conductive to the idea of austerity and cooperation. It's too massive, too spread out, and wouldn't work without the various the little tool and medical caches that exist.

 There's lots of design features like the PTL that cut off access to areas like medbay. Departments are sized in a way that it's easy to miss people waiting outside. There aren't any proper lobby areas and instead most waiting areas are just hallway transit spaces.

I think, if you want to start increasing participation, a new map that focuses more on the idea of a central hub that the departments off shoot from rather than the more compartmental design Cog2 has would be a huge help.

I do love and advocate a ticket system and giving PDAs more functionality and design a great idea, and in a new station design I'd love to see more focus on making the mail and belt system a main focus on moving things around. Maybe merge the systems so mailed items get sent to processing room which uses the belts to finish the transfers.

[Mageziya]

I'm going to reiterate that a lot of this is because of a flaw fundamentals to videogames. Consequence has no meaning because everything will be back to normal by the start of the next round. Why spend all the effort trying to accomplish something when it will be just rendered pointless by next round?

Effort is defined by the amount of time it takes to accomplish. Rounds tend to last around an hour, for frame of reference. This game has a lot of things built in that take a lot of time to accomplish. If something takes 10 minutes to do, you've spent 1/6th of your round doing that thing. This is actually why the majority of secret chems are never made. For example, Rajihah, the chem that everyone loves but no one ever sees, can take 30 to 50 minutes to make due to its complexity, so no one ever makes it.

With player interactions, if you need someone to do something for you, its a godsend if it takes less than 5 minutes to happen, and a miracle if it takes less than a minute. Anything that requires any level complexity, that is, a lot of effort, is going to leave you spending 10 minutes waiting for someone to make it to happen. There are already tons of interactions in game, but no one ever witnesses them because of sheer amount of time you need to invest in it. The prime example of this is botany, because it takes time for them to make anything useful. Even if botany actually makes something useful, every time I've seen medical crops be shipped to medbay the efforts of the botanists are always wasted. Processing many of these healing plants takes 5-10 minutes, which is often too much effort for something that is already accomplished by what medbay has, regardless of how much of said thing medbay has.

One of the few high-effort things I've seen people do is make canister bombs. Why? Because it's literally a round-ender if done correctly. The other things are the engine, solely because it's sole effective duty of the engineer job, and telescience, because solarium is interesting and different from round to round monotony. Actually, telescience is a prime example of both the potential of cooperation and its frustrations. Many telesci attempts end in people frustratedly milling around waiting for someone to do something, while some rounds actually go exploring and accomplish amazing things.

So what's the solution? It seems that we need longer rounds. Problem: That's an awful solution, and we tried it before and it went horribly. It just makes the game boring and dull for the majority of the players.

[misto]

promoting co-operation in a game whose gametypes typically revolve around paranoia and suspicion sounds like an awfully tall order no matter the map redesigns you propose.

people are already fairly co operative in many situations. failure to co-operate is usually due to failure to communicate.

communication is what i believe needs to be enhanced, above all, but the best way to alert someone, the pda and its beeping message alert, is also often an immense liability due to the presence of detomatrix carts

perhaps we could consider enhancements to the game chat and headsets? an option to set a list of keywords (your name, critical terms such as "breach" "traitor" "blob" "gun" "help" for example) to be highlighted in chat?

[Noah Buttes]

perhaps we could consider enhancements to the game chat and headsets? an option to set a list of keywords (your name, critical terms such as "breach" "traitor" "blob" "gun" "help" for example) to be highlighted in chat?

Can't you already do this using the chat options menu you open up by clicking on the gear?