Why was derringers nerfed?

[Sundance]

Derringers had a silent nerf there recently. They now no longer ignore armor.
Which is a fair shame because for 2 telecrystals and only two bullets you expect them to carry a punch. Derringers were exclusively for taking down armored opponents, namely officers. The old shake outta cuffs and derringer trick is now obsolete. They were also handy if an officer didn't totally frisk you and you had that last ace in a hole. It's not even derringers weren't situational before that, they're meant for when you're cornered and are only effective up close.

Now with the nerf it has become even more situational and effectively marginalized the derringer.

[Grayshift]

As much as I think officers need every edge they can get, I agree. If a traitor spends two TCs to take someone out, they should get their moneys' worth.

I would like to make a case for leaving an exception for the captain's armor, however. At present I'm fairly sure it's no different numerically than the standard armor vest. Giving it armor against even AP rounds gives a captain in a nukeops round a better chance of making the round interesting. Mostly a small suggestion to make the cap's armor at least slightly flavorful. No more numerically protective than a standard vest, just it also impacts AP rounds.

Even if not, I think derringers don't need this nerf.

[Zafhset]

I'm pretty sure the captain's armor is stronger than the standard vest, and according to the wiki it was never effective against armored targets.

Derringers are best used point blank for the purpose of flooring your opponent and putting them into a crit (or near crit) stage - at which point you follow up by bashing their brains out.

[Zafhset]

Gonna correct myself by mentioning the derringer description was changed fairly recently. So uh, never meant to pierce armor since a week ago.

[Ed Venture]

They are in the process of nerfing a lot of junk right now, Marq mention in a thread briefly that he wants to nerf Stun Batons and wizards and in IRC Spy Guy talked about the nerf they want to give to Stun Batons which is giving Batons a long cooldown in-between stuns (Which is a terrible idea). I suggested that if they really wanted to fix what was not broken then to make the stun batons only have 5 charges instead of 10. The way they beat things with the nerf stick to oblivion is getting alittle out of control in my eyes. It would be nice if they would talk to the community to see what they think about it before they do it. This way they could get better insight on what they are doing and so people won't jump down their throats for nerfing something. Communication is key and there is very little of that now a days

[Sundance]

It just doesn't make sense really. There's no balance in it at all. You have a radbow which for 1 telecrystal more has infinite ammo and is completely silent. So why bother with the derringer?

I would like to make a case for leaving an exception for the captain's armor, however..

This would be better. Having the captains armor AP proof is a strategic. It's not nerfing the derringer, it's buffing the captains armor in a specific way, particularly in the case of him being downed in a operative round.

Stuff

I agree community input on what needs what would be highly preferable. I feel like with the derringer was nerfed in a rather emotive manner, where someone was killed by it and was all "hey I was wearing armor, that's unfair!" and goes and changes that, rather than actually being robust, noticing the BIG RED TEXT and running away, either avoiding the measly two shots it has or moving into a range where those two measly shots do little damage. Because that's how situational the derringer is, that's all it takes for someone to fuck up with a derringer.

[Marquesas]

You do, of course, realize, that ideas are in terrible territory when you have to throw around expressions like 'AP proof armor'.

Also, no, I was not killed by the derringer, I just learned it was a 125-damage AP shot. Which is fairly ridiculous. Considering there is a hotkey for winking you can pretty much pull it out and fire within a single tick, so your point about noticing it is fairly moot.

The converse point with radbow is that you still need to wait for it to recharge, the kill isn't instantaneous so your target can actually get help instead of dying on the spot, it has a fairly obvious and easy to spot in-hand sprite and when you're strip searched they're not going to notice the gun that's tucked away behind your sunglasses but they're damn sure finding that radbow.

I did mention my surprise and shock in #goonstation about this when I was told and people did not produce the extreme reaction that you two did as long as 'they can still cram their every piece of clothing full of derringers'.

My point is, that this used to effectively deliver 250 damage, on the spot, near instantly, with the added benefit of bleeding. The radbow does not deliver this. Heck, even eswords do not deliver this.

[BaneOfGiygas]

Actually, this is probably a good time to bring something up: How does armor-piercing bullets work? Do they just flat-out ignore all armor whatsoever, or is there a sort of "armor penetration rating" which is just jacked up to extreme levels with armor-piercing rounds? The latter system, while more complicated, seems like a better idea, especially with the new materials system looming in the distance. While armor-piercing rounds should definitely negate a significant portion of the defenses that armor gives, having it register heavy armor made out of the strongest alloys known to mankind as being on the same terms as general-distribution armor sets is a questionable decision. Maybe it's a balancing thing that I'm not recognizing, but I dunno, just my thoughts.

[Marquesas]

Armor piercing rounds do armor calculations with one-third of the armor value.

And that might explain why this nerf might seem a bit like a fucking hammer.
Apparently, AP bullets do the following:
- If no armor is worn or armor value is 0, do power / 2 damage.
- Otherwise, do power / (armor / 3) damage.

This, of course, means that weak armors actually amplify damage, with the thinnest armor making the projectile do 3x damage. No wonder this nerf seems like it brought down the skies.

I'd like to note that this nerf makes the derringer do effectively more damage against unarmored targets.

[Marquesas]

Upon further investigation, most armor are between the values of 1 and 3, so they inadvertently amplified the damage of the AP rounds.

[A4Brogan]

(Posting again, since last time it got eaten by a server error.)

Okay, to help put things in perspective when it comes to balancing changes, allow me to tell you a story of my old country.

You see, I tried my hardest to contribute to the formerly average /tg/station. You see, not all coder-groups are as open and attentive as goons. For example, /tg/pre-SoS resignation was nothing but a giant nerd-prep clique. I shit you not, if they didn't like you, they would joke about that person having kiddy porn on their computer, then start spreading that as the truth. This led to a very optimistic, very inspired sprite-artist to never touch BYOND again. but that is not relevant to the coding, right?

It totally is. The same way they handle their little gang of nerds was the same way they handled the code: with an iron fist and no fucks given. In particular, the prime example was a (man? Woman? something in between? Imma refer to them as "it") called paprka.

This upptiy, egotistical, self serving spunk-rag could give absolutely no fucks about the lore, the community's affection towards mechanics, or even simple politeness; if it wanted to "balance" something to it's liking, paprka would just change it and just push it through. One time, they were gonna flat out REMOVE donk pockets because of "Special Snowflake Coding". it took me listening in on them, hovering the github and pointing it out on the forums and inciting a playerbase mob to take down paprka's little whim.

and speaking of politeness, paprka couldn't care an iota less what you think; it was perfect, and made no error, its judgement superior to all that it held domain. it would mock, belittle, insult, and generally be shit to anyone that would think of making an idea or suggestion it found beneath its taste.

This caused a slow, steady decline in the long time playerbase, and I saw my favorite folks leave, one by one. Eventually, I could not stand the drama and the potential of this little, it-children leaving a damning mark upon my life, and I left Space Station 13 until I discovered Goonstation.

Thing is, Gooncoders? THE FUCKING LISTEN. And listen wonderfully. Not only do they say "Hey, we got something. Let's see how it plays!" and plonks it right in the middle of the goddamn round, but they sit there, possibly with a clipboard and pen, and take your feedback in real time AND in the forums.

So, when you are angry at a small nerf on something, I want you to think of my old community, and the it-lings that effectively killed a community, replacing it with one that does not know any better, or its past. Remember, it could always be worse....You could have it as your head coder, with its little yes-men in tow.

[Sundance]

So in your haste to get yourself from a drama-laden /tg/ community you come to the haven of goonstation, only to post a paragraph on /tg/ station in a suggestion forum post about derringers, thus effectively importing drama. ...aaalll righty then

What i'm reading from this is that derringers in their original state essentially did more damage against armor due them being AP rounds? or is there something i'm missing here?

Also with regards your other points:

I just learned it was a 125-damage AP shot. Which is fairly ridiculous.

The derringer is literally a one telecrystal per shot item. 125 AP damage is not that crazy if you look at at it from that perspective. It is not really a ranged weapon at all, but more of a melee weapon, in that damage is only done in close quarters. So a 125 ap "melee" weapon that costs 1 telecrystal every time you use it (and you're not guaranteed to land every shot like a melee weapon would) is fine in my opinion. Dare I say it, it could do with a buff if anything.

and when you're strip searched they're not going to notice the gun that's tucked away behind your sunglasses but they're damn sure finding that radbow.

Funny you mention that, strip search routine of someone suspected to a be a traitor often leaves the traitor in prison clothing and removed of all their goods. Not that I approve of that (i'd prefer if they had a bit of dignity), but it's something I see more and more. So this point is moot. They sure as hell will find a derringer if they suspect you of being a traitor. And it's often when it's too late.

And my point still stands with the radbow. The radbow in the hands of a robust dude can completely cripple the station, and that's for 3 telecrystals. A traitor cannot do anywhere near that destructive damage with a derringer as he literally only has two shots.

[BaneOfGiygas]

If it helps this discussion any, I tested the precise damage outputs of the derringers and a few other weapons a while ago. The 125 brute damage was only if the dude you're trying to shoot is on a directly adjacent tile. For every tile further out, the damage drops by about 25 brute per tile until you hit the maximum possible range of four tiles away from your position. I haven't gotten a precise damage value for when you shoot someone four tiles away from you with the derringer, but it's probably 50 brute, seeing as the damage decrease due to range on projectiles is usually pretty linear. At four tiles away from your position, the bullet basically vanishes, making it the maximum possible range of the derringer.

It's also worth mentioning that 1-4 tiles is usually the "sweet spot" for maximum damage with most traitor guns (revolvers, .22 pistols, etc.), and that the maximum possible range for revolvers and .22s are 14 and 10 tiles away from your character, respectively.

Meanwhile, I haven't even found a maximum range for the radbow yet, but it's at least 11 tiles. And unlike almost all other projectiles, the radiation received from a radbow bolt (20 Gy) remains static no matter how far the projectile's traveled. Except if you shoot it at point blank (as in switch to a non-help intent and specifically click on the dude), in which case they receive 30 Gy with the tradeoff of actually displaying a messages.

[Frank_Stein]

Referring to someone (that's presumably trans from your description) as it is hella rude and irrelevant to your beef with them, A4Brogan. But this isn't the place for that.

Anyway, I've never used the derringer, but can't you buy multiples and *wink shoot shoot *wink shoot shoot? Wouldn't that be enough to make up for armor resistance?

[Sundance]

Anyway, I've never used the derringer, but can't you buy multiples and *wink shoot shoot *wink shoot shoot? Wouldn't that be enough to make up for armor resistance?

That would effectively cost 4 telecrystals to down one target.