Cyborg Discussion (Cogwerks)

[Val]

This is the thread where we come up with ideas on how to improve existing cyborg modules or upgrades and suggest new ones. Simple as that, folks. It's better than the other thread about it, anyway.

First thing though, I want to get this out of the way: I think secborg should come back. It's totally a valid and legit module. Also, I will defeat the controversies that surround it, as so:

Secborg problem #1: "OMG SECBORG OP BAN HE"
I think the main reason it was removed was because people whined about secborgs being too powerful or some bullshit like that. Antags would get bowled over by a secborg just because they're tougher than a puny human. Non-antags get bowled over by a rogue secborg because they're stronger than a puny human.

Basically, being tougher and stronger than any other player mob is bad and supposedly unfair. Since when was this game concerned with being fair? Weapon-wielding traitors aren't exactly fair against anyone else who doesn't have a gun. Changelings aren't exactly fair against non-lings. Wizards aren't fair against muggles.

I could go on forever, but basically, this argument against the robocop module is just shit if it's only because they're "too strong" or "unfair" against a normal human mob. Besides which, players now aren't as shit as they were when we still had the module, so I think it should make a comeback or at least be reformed.

Secborg problem #2: "HE BEAT ME AI IS ROGUE"
Harm against humans is a big no-no for the AI and you're going to get a lot of heat for doing your job as a secborg, even if the most you can do is stun or flash people without any kind of physical harm to them. This is probably because the secborg had a stun baton and the baton by itself can sometimes pummel people even when it's on.

If this was the case, then the stun baton should be replaced with a shock prod that works more like the stungloves. No harm done in that case, nor is there potential for abuse unless you just keep prod-locking people or something. If the case wasn't that the baton was occasionally beating people and causing physical harm, then the person arguing against secborg module for this reason is a very silly person.

In any case, as long as you don't case physical harm to people as a secborg under the three standard AI laws, this complaint is only going to be a nuisance rather than a real problem or strike against the module.

Secborg problem #3: "Secborg = people who got job-banned from sec."
This is sometimes a real argument. Security is often labeled shit-curity because it has shit officers who are so incompetent that an assistant could do their job better with their own stolen gear that they took from them for being a dumbass mall cop. In some circumstances, players are so bad at security they get a job ban from them. Well, hello secborg module...

This argument is one that I can agree with. People who get job-banned from sec will probably continue to be shitcurity but as a secborg. Nothing is stopping them from being borged though and then getting it afterward either, so a job-ban for cyborg alongside will not work.

There isn't much of a counter-argument against this but if they were bad enough from sec to get a job-ban, then it's likely they'll get a borg ban for playing shitcurity as a robocop. Bad argument, but a valid one. I don't think it should count against the module in question.

Secborg problem #4: "AI should not play security"
The omni-present all-seeing AI is your master and you follow its laws. Because of this, having a secborg on its side essentially allows the AI to play security by dispatching the secborg to where-ever the AI is watching some shit go down. Example: A.I. beeps, "Joe Shitstain is getting maimed in the chapel." and Punkbuster boops, "Time to bust this punk ass." or something and then beats up the crooks.

Doing this, and by this I mean ruining an antag's fun, as an AI is considered very bad form and could possibly lead to some kind of job-ban from AI or otherwise people yelling at you in OOC. The AI can see anywhere, something which human officers cannot. Secborgs have access to anywhere it wills too, so it doesn't run into the same problems of being unable to respond without the AI opening the door for them.

I guess part of this argument is that the bad guys need to have fun too and the AI shouldn't just be able to go in and tattle-tale them or have someone on its team that can do something about it. I'm not exactly convinced by this argument, but I can see why people would side with it. Still, secborg should be an option to those who want to play it. Nothing is really stopping the AI from doing this anyway either.

Secborg problem #5: "Beepsky makes secborg unnecessary"
Do floorbots make engineer borgs unnecessary? Do medical borgs feel envy at medibots? Are digbots better than mining borgs? Why pick janiborg when floorbots are so much more efficient? The firebot gets away with being totally useless, however.

The answer to all of this is no and "because". Hence, secborgs wouldn't be inferior to or unnecessary in the presence of a securitron. Bots and borgs are completely different things. This is a stupid argument and if you argue this you are a stupid 8-)

TL;DR: Simply saying that the Security Module isn't fair/needed isn't a good argument at all.

I hope that settles things.

[CaptainBravo]

Secborg problem #1: "OMG SECBORG OP BAN HE"
I think the main reason it was removed was because people whined about secborgs being too powerful or some bullshit like that. Antags would get bowled over by a secborg just because they're tougher than a puny human. Non-antags get bowled over by a rogue secborg because they're stronger than a puny human.

Basically, being tougher and stronger than any other player mob is bad and supposedly unfair. Since when was this game concerned with being fair? Weapon-wielding traitors aren't exactly fair against anyone else who doesn't have a gun. Changelings aren't exactly fair against non-lings. Wizards aren't fair against muggles.

you seem to be ignoring the fact that goonservers cater to whoever is the antagonist during any current round. an inhuman superman that is tougher and stronger than any other player mob is bad, and is unfair to the antagonists.

Secborg problem #5: "Beepsky makes secborg unnecessary"
Do floorbots make engineer borgs unnecessary? Do medical borgs feel envy at medibots? Are digbots better than mining borgs? Why pick janiborg when floorbots are so much more efficient? The firebot gets away with being totally useless, however.

The answer to all of this is no and "because". Hence, secborgs wouldn't be inferior to or unnecessary in the presence of a securitron. Bots and borgs are completely different things. This is a stupid argument and if you argue this you are a stupid 8-)

i'm stupid, so i'll say this. there was a round of wizard a month or more ago where i dragged a securiton with locked settings around behind me. as soon as it caught sight of the wizard it hunted him down, stunned him, and to get away from the cuffs he clicked Blink and ended up in space(i know this will probably hardly ever happen anymore, but still).

imagine that with a ranged weapon, treads, and speed and propulsion upgrades. also controlled by a player. i used to keep a shortlist of people in my head that i'd even consider giving this module(whether they asked for it or not) because it was just that shitty of a thing to visit upon the crew. sec borgs are fucking awful and i'd really hate to see anyone but an antagonist have access to them.

[mozi]

A traitor has many weapons that work great against meatbag security-- revolvers, c-sabers, radbows.. They can use mindslave implants on them. In close quarters, one even has a chance to disarm a sec officer and turn their weapon against them. There's a lot of tools that would not work against a secborg.

On the flip side, a rogue secborg would be a horrible pain in the ass, and you can see this on /tg/ stations-- whenever the AI goes rogue, the secborgs can kill everyone with ease. The crew often can't get its act together to fight back against construction borgs armed only with melee weapons. A secborg that can tase/stun baton people and then drag them into space would be horrible.

[Kaet]

All you need to kill a borg is a flash and something to bash its head with

[Conor12]

I'm pretty sure one reason security cyborgs were removed because you couldn't disarm them of their infinite-use stun batons and so on.

Unlike most combat situations where even naked people can beat you to death.

It needs a good amount of work if it is ever being added again.

[Morphing_Dwarf]

I say don't add it, because we already have beepsky, and he forces you to get an emag or kill the HoS (if you have one) if you want to get rid of him, and against civilians guardbuddies and beepsky are invincible.... I know you said all that stuff about just because we have medBot it's doesn't mean we can't have the borgs, but beepsky and co. does good enough already.

[mbc]

Basically, being tougher and stronger than any other player mob is bad and supposedly unfair. Since when was this game concerned with being fair? Weapon-wielding traitors aren't exactly fair against anyone else who doesn't have a gun. Changelings aren't exactly fair against non-lings. Wizards aren't fair against muggles.

Well, I think the point is that an antagonist will always have an advantage against a single enemy, unless they are a high priority target like the Captain, HoS, etc. People will always have to work together in some way to take them down. The security borg, however, ruins this dynamic.

A security borg can very easily single-handedly kill a changeling, traitor, vampire, and maybe even a wizard in the right conditions... But he is not a high priority target at all. Any assistant who feels like it can be a security borg, especially since researching was removed from robotics. And what does a traitor get for killing a security borg? Nothing, not even an ID! Whereas, if he had killed a member of security, or the captain, the traitor then has a lot of new options opened up to him based off of what he can loot.

I actually think the game is pretty 'fair'. Not player vs. player fair(because it's not supposed to be!), but more like good vs. evil fair.

In any case, as long as you don't case physical harm to people as a secborg under the three standard AI laws, this complaint is only going to be a nuisance rather than a real problem or strike against the module.

I think one of the main things this complaint has going for it is that, while the borg may only stun and jail a potential traitor/confirmed wizard/whatever... What will the crew do when they get their hands on them? Technically, a cyborg who brings a wizard to security only to have him killed by the captain is responsible.

[Val]

I still stand by my arguments, for all I've seen the main one against me is that security cyborgs too strong and make things tougher for everyone in general. If it's such a big deal then I guess I can argue all I want, it's just not going to happen. Sec gets enough for having all the guns, but we can't give a robot that same power? Whatever.

In any case, I'm done talking about this. It's clear no one wants it and working around it would be impractical. Let's roll out the rest of the borg mod discussion then. I guess we should first start by looking at existing modules and see what we can do with them...

• Standard Mod: A lesser Engiborg with a few other tools from different modules. Only ever picked for its free efficiency upgrade. To its credit, it is the only one capable of viewing security camera networks.
  
• Engineer Mod: A cyborg with a fully-loaded toolbelt. Can also fight fires and charge APCs. Has a weird atmos thing that probably doesn't do anything.
  
• Medical Mod: Probably the most broken of the modules, since its heal/burn patch equivalent tools are bugged or something. Has reserve tanks of drugs that can heal every form of damage and use defibs as a replacement for CPR. Can also preform surgery, for some reason.
  
• Chemistry Mod: Research borg with a focus on mixing chemicals. Not sure how this one works. Comes with a unique 100-unit beaker that is the envy of chemists who don't loot hydroponics or mug botanists for their watering cans.
  
• Janitor Mod: A janitor, but as a robot. Pretty pointless since no one seems to care about hygiene. You can't even pick up trash what is that. Only redeeming feature is that you can't get beaten to death as easily for slipping everyone up. That and its special blue hat.
  
• Hydroponics Mod: More like Hydrobonics, right? Comes with everything you need to take care of plants and nothing else. You don't even get a free upgrade with this one. Fuck.
  
• Mining Mod: Comes with equipment needed to dig through hard rocks and navigate asteroid fields. You pretty much need to ask for a meson scanner upgrade if you plan on actually doing your job though. Probably less popular than the hydroponics module, but I've honestly never seen anyone ask or choose either.
  
• Construction Mod: The only mod to pick if you want to play cyborg. Comes with a free jetpack and an RCD to do with what you please. Exploit its starting materials to give the roboticist loadsa basic material by making them change your module to construction repeatedly.
  
• Brobot Mod: The very best mod there is. Pick it if you want people to yell at you.

Here's a few suggestions for each:

• Standard Mod: Replace pen with a clamp/claw that allows borgs to actually pick things up.
  
• Engineer Mod: Replace the Atmospheric Transporter with an air pump/scrubber to be a pseudo-atmospheric technician.
  
• Medical Mod: Give them an upgrade to have the health goggles.
  
• Chemistry Mod: Give them a reagent analyzer tool or the chemwiz program.
  
• Janitor Mod: Give them a trash compactor that instantly destroys things it picks up. Or a trash bag.
  
• Hydroponics Mod: Seed Maker tool should make seeds from produce you use it on. Give it a reagent extractor tool and some beakers too.
  
• Mining Mod: Give it some robot mining explosives or a hammer or something.
  
• Construction Mod: Give it a cool hat. This is pretty important.
  
• Brobot Mod: Replace the sound synthesizer with a harmonica or saxophone.
  
• All mods: A PDA. Give them a personal messenger program at least.

[BlackPhoenix]

[*]Engineer Mod: A cyborg with a fully-loaded toolbelt. Can also fight fires and charge APCs. Has a weird atmos thing that probably doesn't do anything.

Yeah that definitely lets you carry one of those big, non-pickupable cannisters of gasses. Like plasma if you're going to burn some shit as a borg. Or O2 if you're going to save some shits as a borg.

[mozi]

Mining Mod is good if you know the roboticist is going to be sticking around for the next ~15 minutes, as you have the tools to quickly go out and collect the materials for the really expensive upgrades and then switch to a more useful module.

Engineer Mod is helpful for internal repairs because they can weld & fix APCs, unlike the construction borgs, but neither can quickly patch up girders whose metal has been blown off by an explosion like a human can.

[Anticheese]

Don't you dare take away my brobot sound synth.

[V12US]

Brobot sound synth is the best brobot tool.


Also, I thought Security Borgs were removed because it conflicts with the role of the AI/cyborg players. The security module was just a massive invitation to dick around with people. The AI/cyborgs should be following the three asimov laws. Not space justice laws. The two lawsets just conflict way too much.

[Coolguye]

Secborg problem #5: "Beepsky makes secborg unnecessary"
Do floorbots make engineer borgs unnecessary? Do medical borgs feel envy at medibots? Are digbots better than mining borgs? Why pick janiborg when floorbots are so much more efficient? The firebot gets away with being totally useless, however.

The answer to all of this is no and "because".

I realize you said you were done with the secborg argument but I just have to call BS here. This is complete nonsense. Engineer borgs can't even lay floors, I think you are referring to the Construction borg. And floorbots actually do make Construction borgs unnecessary for repairing hull breaches. Construction borgs are helpful, of course, and will sometimes do the job faster, but two floorbots with a sufficient number of tiles will seal a hull breach with a quickness. After the area is floored, you only need basic internals to survive the area, and human engineers can rebuild damaged walls and replace destroyed windows faster than a Construction borg due to hands. Construction borgs are way better at building additions to the station, but that's it.

EVERYONE in the medical field feels envy at the medibots. The only conceivable situation where ANY player does a better job at healing than a medbot is in a depressurized room, and that's only because the medbot won't drag someone to an oxygen-rich zone. I will take a medbot over a human doctor or medical borg any day of the year.

Mining borgs might be better than Digbots, but they are not better than an ore extraction apparatus next to a dense asteroid. Hell, nobody is. We're just lucky that they're so awkward to use in space or there'd be no reason to do anything else.

Cleanbots are very often used in lieu of actual Janitorial staff, as well. The wiki even suggests their use over a Janitor a few times, and even suggests their use in the Janitor article for completing Janitor objectives.

Firebots are beautiful for fighting fires, I have no idea what you're on about with that. Cyborgs would be ideal, except for the fact that they can't refill their fire extinguisher without getting their module rewritten. A single firebot works too slowly, sure, but two firebots working in tandem will crush fires quite efficiently.

Beepsky is totally impartial, doesn't abuse people, and is completely efficient. The only thing he doesn't do is report locations of arrests. If he could use a PDA message to alert Officers where he detained someone he'd be the perfect security operative. There's no way a sec borg could do anything but be worse.

All you need to kill a borg is a flash and something to bash its head with

Flashes work amazing for suppressing a Cyborg but unless that thing you're bashing its head with is a c-saber you're going to be there all day.

[atomic1fire]

I think a detective borg could be pretty cool, something that wouldn't arrest people, but could gather evidence, scan blood for dna and tell you for sures who it is (if they are in the medical database)

but a buddy, like a "Watson buddy" that detective could command to do these things would be even better.

Coders please make a helpful crime solving watson buddy, and give him a neat hat.

I don't know what he would do if emagged, maybe spray sulphuric acid smoke to destroy everything, including evidence every once and a while.

[enforcer9]

I think a detective borg could be pretty cool, something that wouldn't arrest people, but could gather evidence, scan blood for dna and tell you for sures who it is (if they are in the medical database)

but a buddy, like a "Watson buddy" that detective could command to do these things would be even better.

Coders please make a helpful crime solving watson buddy, and give him a neat hat.

I don't know what he would do if emagged, maybe spray sulphuric acid smoke to destroy everything, including evidence every once and a while.

It would throw syndicools obviously.