[DISCUSSION] Medical Pharmacy vs. Chemistry

[Lord_earthfire]

, the moment you tear something out of that loop you're going to really ruin someones day, and for no real reason too.

The reason are other players.

[Red Dog Dragon]

While I've only been playing SS13 for a few months now, I'd say the crummy thing about playing Scientist focused on chemistry is the rarity of chemical requests. Most of the time I just make random medical chems for medbay (which I seriously doubt they ever actually use or even realize they've been supplied) or bug other departments for requests.

My impression is the lack of need (medbay) or the expectation that nobody in science is actually doing chemistry AND willing to fill chemical requests.

Would having a Chemist job that's effectively a scientist in all but name be that much of an issue? I would think having someone with the official title would at least signal to other players there's someone at least pretending to be doing chemistry for the shift.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

, the moment you tear something out of that loop you're going to really ruin someones day, and for no real reason too.

The reason are other players.

wow, what a nothingburger. you're really proving my point that it's for no reason. why do you hate the players of this game so badly?

[glowbold]

, the moment you tear something out of that loop you're going to really ruin someones day, and for no real reason too.

The reason are other players.

wow, what a nothingburger. you're really proving my point that it's for no reason. why do you hate the players of this game so badly?

stop being toxic dude

[Agent reburG]

, the moment you tear something out of that loop you're going to really ruin someones day, and for no real reason too.

The reason are other players.

wow, what a nothingburger. you're really proving my point that it's for no reason. why do you hate the players of this game so badly?

Chill a bit man, good chance they fixed or even added something you like. They didn't made the PR or decision.

---

Okay, enough yapping and wailing on my behalf, how about this as a quick fix. 

Give Medbay a console, to request chems not every chemical in existence, but a set list of advanced medical chems like Synth flesh, Omni but also Yobizine and Lexorin etc. 

When requested X, science gets a chemical requisition order from CC of Y different chems and Z amount of said chems, all chems being semi difficult to synthesize maybe varying pending on what was requested. 
Important being, SCI doesn't have to synthesize X itself, but a randomly assorted order. 
Once they sent it, successfully, CC returns two locked crates, one with the requested chem for Medbay, and a reward for SCI (Rare chems, glassware like the handheld dispenser etc, varying again pending what was requested). 

Now, said console definitely needs a cooldown, but also puts SCI in position only they can accomplish. 
Now, with the gambling gamer gear, SCI might actually begs Medbay now for requests.

I don't want to clap myself too hard on my own shoulder, but I think this could create voluntary player agency, not because you need to, but because the other has something that really benefits you and them at the same time. 

It's also more additive instead of supplementary, which people usually like more.

[Solenoid]

I played pharmacist last night on RP! It was ok, but my biggest gripe is that they had no chemistry tools given to them, which makes them feel very weak, and ironically makes it so they suck especially hard at making any sort of actually advanced chems without going to science(which on donut2, the map we were on, is nearly impossible to do regularly on lowpop). 

I think that pharmacist should be either given access to more chemistry tools that help them do their job as a sort of specialized med-chemist on site, or it should simply be phased out. I don't think anyone wants to play a half-functional chemist, I certainly didn't find the job that fun without all the bells and whistles of chemistry that make that sort of playstyle fun. It just felt like I was wasting my time vs. playing science or med doc, because the job lacks the tools to do either job effectively on roundstart.

What specific tools do you think are missing?

Honestly, I think it would be easiest to provide Pharmacy with a chem manufacturer. However, in lieu of that, here's my list of specific stuff to act as a jumping off point: A bunsen burner, a few condensers, and at least a fractional condenser would help a TON! Some of the chems needed for advanced med production were balanced around the chem rework and are a lot more of a pain to make by hand.

Also, not sure if this counts as a tool, but maybe giving pharmacists their own sort of connection to the medchem vending machines found on some map would be good, if we're gonna keep them around. It's not necessary or anything, but I'd like to see it eventually. That might be a far further down the road thing, though.

[sunkiisu]

No, I think they should give science a dedicated chemist role, but still allow general scientists to access the area. Something like how roboticists still get doctor access. My suggestion is basically entirely that chemical production should be science’s thing and the implication of this PR moving toward eventually cutting Chemistry entirely is weird imo

I don't think we should give scientists access to the chemlsb, if we split it off.

Maybe they can have a chem dispenser in a lab somewhere for basic chems, but idiots tiding in your department is just awfull.

Although i seriously doubt scientists need chemistry access when "making chems" stops being their duty.

I'll be honest as cool as it would be to have chemistry be it's own isolated subdepartment, I just don't think in practice it would work. Both in terms of the amount of overhaul I imagine that would require, but also I can't see why science would be restricted from the chemlab. Regular medical doctors, sure, but why regular scientists??

[Solenoid]

To me, it seems like the easier to have a role like Pharmacist that can go between medical and science, like a liason

But there's definitely something to be said for the fragmentation of roles. It's simpler and more open ended to just have "Doctor" than it would be to have "Pharmacist" or "Surgeon" or "Anesthesiologist"

I dunno. We already have the systems in place to modify a job title and access, but maybe you could streamline things with something like job tokens, where you could spec a general job towards something more specific.

I personally love the idea of job tokens! Also just for the sake of creating loadouts for different jobs to help in the early round, it seems really useful. I could even see stuff like this working in Botany or other departments, but I think this would be the perfect solution for the whole problem without a need to add completely new jobs or accesses.

[Torchwick]

For what it’s worth I do think that to some degree, limiting what the pharmacy can do would incentivize chem requests more. I’d argue you could keep accesses the same as they used to be, but remove the chemical dispenser and cut down on some of the quantities of prexisting meds. That way, either a chem request goes in, or you march down to sci or customs yourself, hence allowing some form of interaction and meaningful steps to achieve the goal of getting stocked.

It wouldn’t always work, but it would push the use of scientists and their chemistry equipment more.

[Solenoid]

For what it’s worth I do think that to some degree, limiting what the pharmacy can do would incentivize chem requests more. I’d argue you could keep accesses the same as they used to be, but remove the chemical dispenser and cut down on some of the quantities of prexisting meds. That way, either a chem request goes in, or you march down to sci or customs yourself, hence allowing some form of interaction and meaningful steps to achieve the goal of getting stocked.

It wouldn’t always work, but it would push the use of scientists and their chemistry equipment more.

I think the issue that I'm worried about with this is that it either creates a culture of dependence on science, meaning there will have to regularly be a chemist on board and knowledgeable enough to dedicate much of their shift to making medical chems instead of pursuing their own fun chem mixes, which isn't always going to be fun for the chemist. OR, it creates a culture where chemistry is never consulted, because you can just order restock cartridges from Cargo and avoid them, save for the rare cases where you may want perf or anything advanced(though these are, as usual, ultimately optional to acquire).

I would personally like to see a testmerge with no pharmacy, significantly reduced medchems in the vendors, etc. though, at least to see what a shift like that would be like and to see if it would actually make the game more fun for either party.

[Lord_earthfire]

I think the issue that I'm worried about with this is that it either creates a culture of dependence on science, meaning there will have to regularly be a chemist on board and knowledgeable enough to dedicate much of their shift to making medical chems instead of pursuing their own fun chem mixes, which isn't always going to be fun for the chemist. OR, it creates a culture where chemistry is never consulted, because you can just order restock cartridges from Cargo and avoid them, save for the rare cases where you may want perf or anything advanced(though these are, as usual, ultimately optional to acquire).

I would personally like to see a testmerge with no pharmacy, significantly reduced medchems in the vendors, etc. though, at least to see what a shift like that would be like and to see if it would actually make the game more fun for either party.

My goal, once finished, is that a knowledgeable chemist needs 10 minutes in a round setting up basic chems and then have most of the shift available to fuck around. The exception is when shits going down, e.g. a rampage or nass poisoning.


Akin how engineering does it.

[Kotlol]

This topic is going everywhere so let me say this what I think is a basic demand for things.

Every department "should" have a bare minimum to function by itself.
It's not as fun but the station runs.

Interdepartment interactions however, improve the output of those places.
Botany with The Kitchen as a perfect example.

Where I think it goes wrong is when the other departments are NEEDED to have a shift going. Let's go with the old infamous "cargo was always needed or else no one gets paid."
This means if there is no cargo doing anything or the QM is new and learning... cause they aren't doing anything.. everyone suffers from it.

As it stands now.. the only department who if no one is there and the whole station will suffer.. is engineering. No one does the engine and most of the station can barely function. Personally I want a fix for this that each department can recharge their own APCs by some sort of arbritrary way that's not good at all. (like hamster wheels for each department all the time as a silly example)

But overall if chemistry goes loose from science, it just narrows science's scope more. It was clear the robotcist and genecist were originally science at one point.
Yet also medbay since they could help medbay, now they are part of medbay but also seperate and let's be real...
HOW MUCH DOES GENETICS AND ROBOTICS INTERACT WITH EITHER SCIENCE OR MEDBAY?!
Heck Robotics is bored half the time and we got a whole thread on "Genetics not caring what's going on"

So how do you think chemistry goes about it? Well I seen a lot of chemist ignore requests.. but another scientist swoops in and fixes things.
Now if chemistry becomes it's own thing.. where do you place it? Keep it in science as their own? Put it in medbay? But... chemistry blows up a ton too...
What about the bar basically having the same chemistry set too?

You starting to see the bigger problems and questions? This is a cascading effect of fixes that "are not needed" as other things take way more priority.
For now let's leave medbay alone, I am fine with the pharmacist being available 24/7, but let's stop with this reinviting the wheel thing if it just adopts the old problems as well.

[Frank_Stein]

Okay, enough yapping and wailing on my behalf, how about this as a quick fix. 

Give Medbay a console, to request chems not every chemical in existence, but a set list of advanced medical chems like Synth flesh, Omni but also Yobizine and Lexorin etc. 

When requested X, science gets a chemical requisition order from CC of Y different chems and Z amount of said chems, all chems being semi difficult to synthesize maybe varying pending on what was requested. 
Important being, SCI doesn't have to synthesize X itself, but a randomly assorted order. 
Once they sent it, successfully, CC returns two locked crates, one with the requested chem for Medbay, and a reward for SCI (Rare chems, glassware like the handheld dispenser etc, varying again pending what was requested). 

Now, said console definitely needs a cooldown, but also puts SCI in position only they can accomplish. 
Now, with the gambling gamer gear, SCI might actually begs Medbay now for requests.

I don't want to clap myself too hard on my own shoulder, but I think this could create voluntary player agency, not because you need to, but because the other has something that really benefits you and them at the same time. 

It's also more additive instead of supplementary, which people usually like more.

Yeah I think that's a good idea. 

Could be something where when the requests are made, money is added to the ordering budget to cover the costs of the requested with a little extra to order something for your own benefit

[ju45he]

Why would people play a role that only makes chemicals for medbay when they could play scientist? I think if chem requests were rewarded with artifacts that people would actually be completing the requests, and there would be no need for a chemist in medical.

[JORJ949]

Its clear people want it to be its own role, and thus the question is what department it belongs to. If you place it in science as a "Chemist" then they aren't under the authority of the Medical Director, who is the main person that will want to order them to make X chems, and they'll be more detached from medical and their needs. Placing them in medical as a "pharmacist" role more accurately describes their role (make medicine) while positioning them among the people they will be making chemicals for. Though this comes with the downside of medical interaction for chems not going to another department, but it still goes to another player so this isn't necessarily a bad thing.