Make stuns/lying down no longer drop weapons

[TDHooligan]

To start this off - as an antagonist, you're outnumbered, to make up for this, you get limited credits/unique tools/DNA. 

In older SS13, every weapon was a RNG stun baton (% to stun). This was 'fair' but really inconsistent, a toolbox would just 'get lucky' and instantly own a CSaber user. It was how balance was. You get stunned, your gear is stolen, you grab their toolbox and can hope for a stun too. It occasionally worked both ways, but it often felt awful. In part to rectify this, Stamina was introduced. 

In isolation, it works - if toolboxer and CSaber user just hit each other in the void, the CSaber user would (generally) come out on top. Over time, staffie tactics adjusted, and every alternative stun in the game was slowly removed or nerfed. plates, peels, suplexes. I'd argue that, stylistically, it's sad a lot of these are gone.

If you fight someone capable, they can use one of the remaining ways to cause a tiny stun in the game. These stick around as the player in question risks their whole life for a chance to stop you briefly. Good risk/reward. It feels good for staff assistants who may not otherwise have a chance. Removing them all makes non-powergamers helpless.

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The main issue that arises is that these risky, last-ditch efforts do more than grant a chance to escape/disarm.
It completely flips everything.

The moment you trip over for any amount of time, the investment in your weapon is immediately reversed. Now the staff assistant has your weapon. And 1-2 free hits. Your C-Saber/baton just killed you.

You would have survived if you had... 
- Used a gun, and refuse to engage in melee (most antags I see do this)
- Used a non-weapon antag item (wrestlebelt, gloves)
- Removed stuns (stims. also very popular)
- Used a worse weapon (you can at least run away without dying if you get stunned)

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TL;DR/Suggestion:

- Lying down/Stuns no longer drop your weapons.
- Stuns gain a visual status indicator, like stars around your head. To make the two visually different

With these two changes, stuns change massively:
- Stuns can last a little longer in general, or be reintroduced to old mechanics. No longer just for Sec.
- Players get to choose: attempt disarms on stunned targets and risk vengeance, or use the time to escape/find your own weapon
- Your big weapon is still a risk to yourself, but careful stamina management will help prevent you being disarmed.

There will be knock-on effects for some gear (nukie guns, sec etc), but once they're also ironed out, I think Goon's combat will be better for it.

[colossusqw]

I do agree, overall this just feels like an upgrade in every aspect
Edit: More complete thoughts here, stuns being different than disarms makes them a lot more interesting overall, and still quite powerful whilst being less frustrating just losing your weapon the moment you slip or get down. You'll still be stunned, unable to fight or escape for a while, potentially getting cuffed by sec or bashed up by an antag, but weapons won't be as easy to just take out of the picture in what are mostly very underwhelming moments.

[Gomp]

I also think this should be given a trial. There will definetly be some adjustment and whining as goes with any big change like this but I don't like the way it works right now either so for me there is not much risk in trying something new.

[Emimiyu]

Might want to make it easier to shoot people lying down ir so

[Chasu]

Might want to make it easier to shoot people lying down ir so

The true secoff mindset.

Anyway, I'd be in favor of a change like this. It'll require a deep rebalancing of combat, but I'm sure it'll change the game for the better. On RP, fights are often the satisfying payoff for an hour of escalation, so I like the idea of them lasting longer instead of being ended by a .5 second stun.

[LeahTheTech]

I'm not totally against trying this, but I would want to make sure we avoid the weird TG style combat where it ends up with robust players just flopping over and sliding at their opponent to avoid being knocked down because that looks so silly.

[TDHooligan]

I'm not totally against trying this, but I would want to make sure we avoid the weird TG style combat where it ends up with robust players just flopping over and sliding at their opponent to avoid being knocked down because that looks so silly.

yeah, you could probably wrench something cool out of this like costs/benefits to being floored:
 - less recoil for shooting, but penalties for melee attacks (maybe longer attack cooldown)
 - standing costs stamina now, spamming it leaves you at low %
 - when you stand up you keep the movement penalty for a short time
 - if you click a guys sprite directly to shoot at them, it negates any passive dodge chance, so ducking helps get you out of harms' way if someone is spraying down a hallway

it would be neat to see, say, nukies with LMGs going prone, they get a big buff, but are weak to grenades/melee rush

[Drakios]

As a secmain and HoS I really like this idea, I personally was always scared of taking expensive antag weapons with me because I knew how fast I can just be stunned and drop this weapon, or simply slip cause the janitor washed the floor a minute ago or a clown with a single banana peel could be my biggest enemy, while I'm wearing command armor and a Csaber just because they got the chance to slip me once.

Same goes as sec of, the amount of times I randomly slipped and dropped my baton or worse my beloved lawbi and it was used against me is so high I cant even count it, sure it is often very funny to me to slip on my face get farted on and stunned with my own weapon or killed by it, but I think it would help to encourage player to use things like meele weapons more and it could make fights so much more interesting.

A stimmed up person in pretty much any kind of armor with a wrestle belt is able to kill a whole sec team plus multible other people trying to help while using their weapons against them which just makes them even stronger. 
I think stimms are mainly used so you dont lose the expensive or cool weapon you got and can have more fun with it, losing you gear very quickly is I think not really fun for anyone and can be anti climatic

[ju45he]

I kinda prefer just nerfing the sources of stun that deserve it, but willingly laying down and dropping things is just really inconvenient.

[Mikeistaken]

I was thinking something like this a while ago, and yeah I really think its a good idea, you just beat me too it!

[Kotlol]

I agree with this.

Nothing is more frustrating then being an antag or security officer and... someone shoves you and you HAPPEN to get unlucky and your weapon drops.
No skill, no stamina management, no fun.
There is never a need to DISARM someone unless you arrest them standing...

So I am heavy in favor of this on both sec or antag or just antag. I litterly lost fights as a traitor being goofy by "Shove"
Also the inversed happen and it doesnt feel fun....

I see a lot of good additions like: standing up will cost stamina. That's a 10/10 suggestion.
Something to have not abuse lay down and shoot.
Also this would buff roach people / skitter gene indirectly. Since they can skitter off the ground, so might want to look into that too. I already find Skitter really strong with it being able to go under tables to hide or getting to the other side. And getting a boost if you trip and knock down... Maybe have skittering cost more stamina.

[bamlord]

+1 from me. I think this would be a good change

[joe joed]

Apart from my bias of loving the tension of playing with easy-to-lose gear, my main concern with this is the major nerf it would be to crew. This would buff security and gear-based antagonists, but it would nerf the average crewmember as well as ability based antagonists.

The drawback of gear including melee gear has always been that it is easy to lose, whether it be from shoving, slipping, tripping, ect. To counter this, a gear user would have to grow their skill of assessing a situation to know when they should or should not pull out the gear in question.

I am also concerned that this could affect the dynamics of fights involving arcfiends, vampires, and changelings; who sometimes rely on their special abilities to disarm via stun their gear-user opponents (security, captain). With the changes suggested by this post, security would just be frozen in place for a second or two and then could immediately resume beating the shit out of the antag they are fighting.

As for the specific antag gear items this buff would most likely be visible with (csaber, katana), i agree that it would for the average player help in some situations. There would still be major issues though:

Without this change (how the game currently is), average john space who buys a csaber might kill a guy in the hall and then (likely) lose it and die to two or three other guys in the hall. 

With this change, john space would (probably) be successful in killing all three of the guys in the hall, and then, most likely be forced into trading clicks with a security officer who has a baton; and get KO'ed out of comission regardless of their success in the precursor fight.

As an alternative way to buff melee gear users, blocking with a high damage item (lets say greater than or equal to 10) could resist the stun from incoming chairflippers, instead disorienting the blocker and hurting the chairflipper in question. I think this would have a greater shot at nullifying the problem in question.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

test it on the servers and see how the playerbase reacts it could be fun to change things up

[Frank_Stein]

I like the idea of stuns being a precursor to a second maneuver, like a disarm or some of our grapple moves like supplexes and pins.

I think if you were add a durability system on top of that to a lot of the improvised weapons like toolboxes or extinguishers, where they were good for getting people into stunned states but less reliable at dealing damage long term over, you could have more drawn out brawler styled fight over the faster and dealier ones we have now