[CLOSED PR] Clone defects occur based on time since clone scan data saved

[Chasu]

Could do a poll on this in the discord

[Ikea]

I'm honestly for removing prescans entirely (and compensating by making death in general more detectable/and bodies more recoverable) but this seems fine and good. In general I feel like especially with the respawn timer on roleplay death matters a lot less and I'm for changes which make it matter more. On a sidenote a 30 minute respawn timer for classic could be good.

[Lord_earthfire]

That's not how it works, for a lot of risky activity ingame. The pacing of SS13 is incredibly slow and most tasks can take up to 20 minutes to complete, especially when it involves RNG. Miners are going to be severely punished for this on ocean maps. Nobody wants to drag a dead rotting body from the bottom of the acid ocean on nadir, when drones or sea critters are all over it. It's game over for the miner, because he'll either never be revived, or have a giant chance of being cloned with the puritan defect and not be able to play the round again. 

Disagree, its exactly how that works. Besides miner and security there is not a single job that can not plan pn sctivities that get them killed. And both of these can get to medbay on a regular basis to get a prescan, if they really want to.

In general, non-major cloning defects are a non-issue and can be played around -very- easily. I feel people make too much of a deal out of them. And you should be aböe to get a scan twoce a shift to prevent major scans.

The thing i would like to see would be a timer on discs. If i plop a didc on, i would like to see a warning if a major defect is possible. Because i need to react to potentially replace an organ or something else.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

Disagree, its exactly how that works. Besides miner and security there is not a single job that can not plan pn sctivities that get them killed. And both of these can get to medbay on a regular basis to get a prescan, if they really want to.

In general, non-major cloning defects are a non-issue and can be played around -very- easily. I feel people make too much of a deal out of them. And you should be aböe to get a scan twoce a shift to prevent major scans.

The thing i would like to see would be a timer on discs. If i plop a didc on, i would like to see a warning if a major defect is possible. Because i need to react to potentially replace an organ or something else.

That's not how it works, for a lot of risky activity ingame. 

Good thing I specified there, right?

[Lord_earthfire]

That's not how it works, for a lot of risky activity ingame. 

Good thing I specified there, right?

And i said there is almost no non-planable risky situation. You can plan and get a prescan for almost any activity, and the ones that don't (sec, miner) can run on regular basis into medbay.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

That's not how it works, for a lot of risky activity ingame. 

Good thing I specified there, right?

And i said there is almost no non-planable risky situation. You can plan and get a prescan for almost any activity, and the ones that don't (sec, miner) can run on regular basis into medbay.

Sec, sure. Miner, nowhere near as much. Try getting back to medbay when you're mining without a pod on an ocean map and there's an X drone chasing you. Adventure zoners would face the consequences of this too and this codebase is basically only good for its azones so that's massive stuff you'd be tampering with.

This entire PR adds a completely unnecessary layer of annoying tedium to cloning. Game mechanics don't have to be easy to be good, but you don't have to throw everybody under the bus for the sake of balancing.

[Lord_earthfire]

Sec, sure. Miner, nowhere near as much. Try getting back to medbay when you're mining without a pod on an ocean map and there's an X drone chasing you. Adventure zoners would face the consequences of this too and this codebase is basically only good for its azones so that's massive stuff you'd be tampering with.

Firstly, azones are among the weakest part of this codebase and i personally wouldn't mind them being cut from the game. They pull crewmember out of the core gameplay loop without contributing to the round of others.

Secondly, if you are unable to return at least every 30 minutes as a miner in oshan or nadir, i call skill issue. How are you unable to have 2+ full satchels after 10 minutes of mining? You should have delivered ores at least twice by the point you need a new clone scan. You can get a clone scan or head to the bar at this point.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

Firstly, azones are among the weakest part of this codebase and i personally wouldn't mind them being cut from the game. They pull crewmember out of the core gameplay loop without contributing to the round of others.

I am shocked and appalled.

[Asterion0]

My biggest concerns with this are pretty simple:
(1) Fifteen minutes is kinda short, and I'd be more for a 20 minute interval since that keeps the major defects as the big annoyance instead of four minor defects and a major one that can be an actual issue. (Maybe worth splitting some of the defects into a medium category that this can proc instead? The puritan defect argument on this is a valid point)
(2) As earthfire said, a little yellow/orange flashing light to signal that the disk has a minor/major defect risk would be almost required to keep track of this in any capacity beyond a single doctor writing down the exact time everyone got scanned on a clipboard (On second thought perhaps this is funny albeit gameplay wise worse)

On the positive side:
(1) People are more likely to check up on their scans and give the commonly underwhelmed medbay a little trickle of things to do, while also making it something that's very easy to push aside at the first hurdle to conveniently doing it.
(2) Being in the camp of Make Killing People Deadlier, this does mean that even if you devise the perfect counter (a prescan), to an antag's masterful trap, instantly countering ANY move they could pull on you directly, you might face consequences if the antag actually took the time to have an engaging fight or trap, and lets insta kill rampage victims be revived with minimal defects.

Semi-related but I think it'd be neat if there was a way to get special disks (QM maybe?) that have an extra 10 minute buffer for jobs that might want that, but that'd be an after this gets merged changed. Would just be neat I feel as an item with actual value QM can provide.

As for a lot of the arguments against it...
Honestly there's not a lot of real ones being made I'll say. Sure there's a lot of people arguing against the idea of punishing prescans but like. A lot of people are just straight up overexaggerating what this is gonna do. Like the chances of anyone hitting that 1 hour prescan defect (the only one that matters) are very low. Minor defects are simply not a big enough problem for them to be a part of this discussion (and basically excluding classic from this since there's almost 0 chance you'll have an hour old prescan). Saying this makes prescans useless is being facetious since I'm of the opinion that even if all they did is drop a brain they'd STILL be worthwhile considering monkey-cloning/borging exist. At the absolute, worse case scenario, an RP player will hit the puritan major defect after forgetting they even had a prescan and drop their brain for borging at 30 minutes to shuttle.

Don't like being the one to do it but it really does need pointed out that people are just being way more hostile to the PR without giving any actual look at it. The number of just blatantly incorrect things said is appalling and makes me second guess how many people actually read the PR, or how dramatically it got changed from its original inception that I'm just not seeing reflected in the discussion maybe due to people just assuming it's exactly the same as it orginally was without double checking. It also makes sifting out the actual valid criticism from the blatant antagonism an extra chore that really shouldnt be needed. That's also ignoring the fact it directly hurts the chances of any improvements being made to potential issues with this as it obfuscates it, not even considering it's absolutely got to be even worse for Glowbold as the one actually making it.

[laugoose]

I think this would be fun as long as the flashing light was present and a PDA message popped up after too many genetics issues to medbay. This would facilitate getting another scan with the same disk, getting to speak to medbay again, and allowing more inter-round discussion

HOWEVER, I am scared about what this will do to Security pre-round emergency disks. Arguably it should not change how Security is, because one of the most deadly jobs should have to check in with medbay to keep their scans up! an extra 10-20 minutes seems okay but considering the disks are meant to be the last resort and a contingency plan, having them accrue anything feels wrong. i'm unsure

[Mouse]

I maintain that all complaints about cloning are downstream of precooking bodies.

[Torchwick]

To be 100% clear I am not against this and speaking about it to be rude or mean, I totally respect that a lot of time and thought goes into this. I just assume that if the forum post is made, feedback both good and bad is wanted. It doesn’t really seem to me like anyone is responding in bad faith. I see both sides and I do agree that prescans can be annoying for antags, I just don’t know if this is the best path to fix it.

[Danger Noodle]

1. I feel like there should be an indicator, new booklet blurb or other way to tell that this is happening that isn't being told this is a mechanic or needing to open the wiki. It feels like the sort of thing that without a sound or anything similar might go a bit too unnoticed and end up with people not knowing it's a thing in a few months.

2. It actually works in the inverse somewhat, if people are going to be refreshing scans then any sabotage (relabelling, stealing, wiping) has significantly less impact since they'll just get a new one instead

3. I think making it based on something other than just time could be neat, maybe instead disks need to be stored in a cold environment will end up having defects occur slower while setting medbay on fire will fuck with the data real bad

4. Even just unrelated to this, I'd like to see a rework of defects, maybe a middle tier as was said by someone else.

[Silent Majority]

Part of my issue is some "minor" defects are incurable and make the game.ezperoencr into something tbat can be very frustrating, like asthma or klutz. If those where tweaked it might be less of an issue for me.

However my question still remains why did we make the disks if we want people to jpt use the disks. If theres no prescans what is the POINT of a disc or the the disc holders.

[SnugglyCactus]

I actually like this idea a lot, but this is coming from the person that thinks cloning defects are so funny that they made an entire trait just for them. If I could pop out of the cloner every time with no limbs in critical condition, I would.

As for the making death more impactful bit, I actually don't think this changes that a ton. If you get a pre-scan, die at 70 minutes in, and get cloned, other than a brief medical emergency or a trip to genetics, you're pretty much fine. Of course, my opinion is colored entirely by me thinking cloner defects are hilarious, so it may not make a ton of sense.