[CLOSED PR] Clone defects occur based on time since clone scan data saved

[github_bot]

PULL REQUEST DETAILS




[medical][experimental][balance]
About the PR
Clone defects occur based on time since clone scan data saved.

Every 15 minutes since the scan a minor defect is added to the clone. At both 60 and 90 minutes, a major defect is added instead.

Disks made on spawn (i.e. sec disks) have a buffer time of 30 minutes from creation before they begin to be affected; i.e. it's like they got a scan at 30 minutes into the shift.

Why's this needed?
Getting a pre-scan early into the shift is a zero-risk way to largely eliminate the danger of death for the rest of the round. This change encourages getting clone-scans only before knowingly risky activity, without removing the ability to get a pre-scan entirely.

A separate issue with zero-risk cloning that this change addresses it the any complexity or depth to cloning; anyone and everyone will try to clone everyone, regardless of circumstance. This adds some decision making when determining when to clone: do you wait for the body for a fresh scan, or use the disk and take a potential risk on the backup.

Furthermore, zero-risk, immediate cloning can and has been a severe impediment for antagonists: vampires unable thrall someone because they're cloned; antagonist identities outed immediately; kidnapping moot due to the victim having a disk.

Lastly, having perfect clone behavior affects player behavior in a major way since the risk of sitting the round out is zero. You are allowed to take unlimited risk with a clone scan in a way that puts antagonists on the back foot; antags have to play to live, but crew only needs to rush them knowing coming back to life is a click away.

Overall I think choices you're asked to make in-game should require judgement and impact the way the round plays out. While pre-scanning provides the latter, it fails at the former by being a zero-question, every-shift action for a lot of people.

Testing

<img width="489" height="248" alt="image" src="https://github.com/user-attachments/assets/c8f2655a-2903-48ea-9a2e-9ff08d162303" />




Changelog

Code:

changelog
(u)glowbold
(*)Clone defects occur based on time since clone scan data saved.
(+)Security Disks have a bonus 30 minutes from creation before they begin to be affected.

PULL REQUEST DETAILS

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

That is abhorrent

---

Just add a traitor item that tampers with clonescan disk integrity instead or something, either medical job-locked or give it to the EMAG.

15 minutes until you get a clone defect. Miners or people preparing for an adventure zone are gonna get wrecked by this. Pre-scans hardly ever happen, now they never will. I don't know if it's a more popular thing on RP but if it is, keep this PR to that server only.

On one hand we get people perma-dead more often, maybe that's a good thing in your opinion, on the other hand you're going to have mutant abominable freaks walking around everywhere who fall over when they run and have legs for arms, and I think this is going to severely strip away from the fun of clone defects being as horrifying as they are, because they'll be everywhere.

[Silent Majority]

This just feels mean spirited.

Kinda part of the fun of goon is the fast deaths and fast revivals and fast respawns. How does this...work?

Sec starts with clone discs that will only be broken so should be immediately thrown away?

Like defects are nest. Theres a trait for it. This just sounds like more busy work. Or instead of cloning people will just start getting rot bust health monitors and tyrn their gps.on. should we disable gps because it can help revive and fknd people?

This just feels like someome doesn't want prescans. Theres so many ways to diable or stop cloning..

Going even further..what was the point of the discs if we also don't want people to use the discs?

We made a shole system for collecring clone discs which we now want to tell people that they can't use anymore because it will make them deformed or unable to do their jobs or just apply puritan and make them explode even if they didn't want fo be a puritan.

I've cloned into having incurable clumbsy on sec before which basically turns off the job. We have a trait to be a puritan then applied to people who specifically didn't take puritan to then get round overed. And i get round overs are part of the game, but this just..

I don't understand the idea here at all

[Drakios]

I would like that change on the clone defect trait, I think otherwise it could cause maybe problems? Especially on Rp since a lot of people like their character like they are and being at a such higher risk of getting a defect( I dont know what all counts as such) could discourage people maybe.

Im personally on the side that I think cloning should be harder in someway, because if medics get a patient in very bad shape in and try to save the person its often just a "welp" and then they clone that person, also I don't know if that would even work but couldn't you cut out the implant of someone, and scan them on a new fresh disk to avoid that completely?
But yeah I would love it when this change goes into the already existing trait since, I use that trait for many of my character and so far I barley noticed defects but maybe im just blind who knows

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

Going even further..what was the point of the discs if we also don't want people to use the discs?

Even better point than what I brought up. This change is totally redundant between cloning disks being added, the puritan trait existing, and the clone defect trait existing.

Also it makes way more sense for the clone record to corrupt after several rounds of cloning than it does to make it degrade over time. 15 MINUTES. It's like they're using the worlds worst early-day SSDs to store clone data except it's the future and nanotransen is the galaxy's leading space corporation or whatever so there's absolutely no reason for it being that unreliable

If they want a more effortful alternative to cloning they should seriously just add the defib revival / surgery that TG has. I'd rather them rip actually good features from that codebase than TG's ugly broken GUI

[saccharineChampion]

Even better point than what I brought up. This change is totally redundant between cloning disks being added, the puritan trait existing, and the clone defect trait existing.

FWIW - Cloning disks are far from recent as the different verbiage of being added vs. existing (for puritan) implies - they have been a thing for 7, almost 8, years, they just haven't been required until recently and therefore did not see much use.

It's like they're using the worlds worst early-day SSDs to store clone data except it's the future and nanotransen is the galaxy's leading space corporation or whatever so there's absolutely no reason for it being that unreliable

Retrofuture, not simply future. Some things being crappier than our irl advancements is very much on theme.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

FWIW - Cloning disks are far from recent as the different verbiage of being added vs. existing (for puritan) implies - they have been a thing for 7, almost 8, years, they just haven't been required until recently and therefore did not see much use.

Yeah but nobody went out of their way to use disks. Now you're forced to, which is what I, and the guy I was replying to, were referring to. My bad I never specified that, but I thought it was already implied.

Retrofuture, not simply future. Some things being crappier than our irl advancements is very much on theme.

OK fine. You could argue from a story basis that it makes sense, even if it's dumb if nanotransen suddenly had to go from perfectly normal clone disks to ones that can't hold data for shit (even more inconsistent with the behavior of other floppy disks in the game, considering clone disks are regular everyday floppy disks). But from a gameplay basis it's seriously unnecessary and punishes players for a practice that doesn't negatively impact the game at all.

[Kotlol]

This once again the playerbase of "Death needs to mean more." vs "Death takes you out of the game and shouldnt be buffed more."

Everyone atleast agrees that: The game is no longer fun if you cannot do anything.
While death aint the worst in this game since you can go to the afterlife bar, haunt people, use a ouja board and such.
It still sucks you can no longer play the round as you want to.

Besides the more we keep nerfing cloning, the more people will resort to strange reactant as the revival methode, revivals will be longer yes...
But all you did was make cloning obsolete.

Cloning should be the GO TO methode of revival in my opinion as it is what it is: Cheap, fast and clunky.
Nerfing it like this just makes medbay go: "Let's stock up on medicine and strange reactant."

If you want to make death more impactful on others, then the antags have to make that so. Not mechanics that punish everyone.
If you want to have more challange we got traits like Puritan.
But seriously... clone is in a good state now.

[Torchwick]

Not personally a fan of this. Imo, like it or not cloning is a big part of the game. The disk rack was a fun addition but this just feels punishing for using it. I’m a puritan main so it largely doesn’t affect me when I end up dying, but I just don’t see why we’re working to make the disk rack … worse, especially when it was already meant to be a nerf to the OG cloning setup and people generally seem to enjoy the disk rack change.

I wouldn’t be opposed to this being applied only to those with the defect prone trait. That makes sense to me!

[Whele]

Prescans are boring? That's the only given reason for this? It's boring to be able to be revived and go back to doing what you wanna do instead of having your defects be tended to, potentially during a chaotic round when medbay is too busy to give you assistance?
I'm not a fan of making the game arbitrarily harder for little benefit.

[glowbold]

PR "Why's this needed?" Updated:

Getting a pre-scan early into the shift is a zero-risk way to largely eliminate the danger of death for the rest of the round. This change encourages getting clone-scans only before knowingly risky activity, without removing the ability to get a pre-scan entirely.

A separate issue with zero-risk cloning that this change addresses it the any complexity or depth to cloning; anyone and everyone will try to clone everyone, regardless of circumstance. This adds some decision making when determining when to clone: do you wait for the body for a fresh scan, or use the disk and take a potential risk on the backup.

Furthermore, zero-risk, immediate cloning can and has been a severe impediment for antagonists: vampires unable thrall someone because they're cloned; antagonist identities outed immediately; kidnapping moot due to the victim having a disk.

Lastly, having perfect clone behavior affects player behavior in a major way since the risk of sitting the round out is zero. You are allowed to take unlimited risk with a clone scan in a way that puts antagonists on the back foot; antags have to play to live, but crew only needs to rush them knowing coming back to life is a click away.

Overall I think choices you're asked to make in-game should require judgement and impact the way the round plays out. While pre-scanning provides the latter, it fails at the former by being a zero-question, every-shift action for a lot of people.

[Whele]

Reasoning for this change aside, I think it's important to consider the mindset of someone who's unfamiliar with exactly how the cloner works. When you get a clone scan and are later cloned with some kind of defect, it's fair to assume that 1. It's the cloner's fault (The cloner is broken or requires maintenance) or 2. It's your fault (You messed up somehow by doing something you shouldn't have and now you have a defect because of it). I think it's an unnecessary hike in the learning curve to have "getting cloned too long ago" being a reason that you acquire a defect. Seems like the kind of thing that would have to be explained to the uninitiated often, since someone that is in the learning stage will not understand why they're being penalized.

[Kotlol]

Nothing feels more worst then an effect you gained from not being your fault at all.

Cloning should NOT be one of them unless we players or doctors have to effect it.
if you die on an operating table, that's the doctor's fault.
If you get a clone defect when your death is because a pipe bomb in the pipes went off underneath you, is 100% NOT YOUR FAULT and that just feels like the game is kicking you down.
I think this is not a goonstation thing, we like some randomness but no one likes being randomly gib exploded and now the only thing you did to counteract it... will be with a consiquence.

I understand the need for antags to have more meaning to get away with killing, but this ain't it.

Cause now you are making people constantly annoying medbay....

I can also claim: If cloning is a problem, just bomb medbay. It happens a lot regardless. once the cloning disks are blown up you can go killing.

I think glowbold you got an idea but this is the wrong methode by far.

Insted we need to do a few changes to cloning insted for this. Like... if someone is cloned they look the same but will come up CLONED HUMAN without an ID. (It's already weird seing stowaways with names when I am not suppose to know it).
So I just recommend every player without ID to come up "Unknown" even when talking.

Another change would be is to change how cloning works in general. Insted of a button press, it's a small process you have to setup everytime.
Even with 90% ready clones, you gotta set it up and then add the last 10%. If something goes wrong during it... the doctor has to decide to either keep a risk of a defect IN or start over and waste bio-matter. But this requires a too big overhaul.

Another methode would be to give cloning disks a delay by like a minute before they start blinking or allow cloning.

These are what I suggest insted of: "Ooh you prepared to eventually be gibbed, but didn't come back to renew your scan or got killed during it, HAVE RNG."
As much as I understand the antag sentiment... the reverse is also true.
Heck... antags sometimes need to be cloned because something blew htem up too.. so while you think you are buffing antags, you might also be nerfing antags hit by crossfire.

Eitherway... I think antags need more ways to fight cloning rather then DIRECTLY NERFING cloning or ways to DISRUPT cloning and such. Or make a process that can fail by player interaction, not by RNG/time.

Or we just make sure that everyone without an ID has their name hidden away.

[Sord213]

Seems like a good idea to me, making it so prescanning isn't just an instant "I win" button in the event you're murdered. Big problem right now is antags killing someone, and that person getting popped out of the cloner within 30 seconds of them dying. Now it should make it so finding the body is a priority, so you can do a fresh scan and pop them out with no defects, but in the event the body is unrecoverable they're still not shit outta luck. It also encourages people to pop back into medbay to refresh their clone scan.

[GARGATHUGANOKSREVENG]

PR "Why's this needed?" Updated:

Getting a pre-scan early into the shift is a zero-risk way to largely eliminate the danger of death for the rest of the round. This change encourages getting clone-scans only before knowingly risky activity, without removing the ability to get a pre-scan entirely.

That's not how it works, for a lot of risky activity ingame. The pacing of SS13 is incredibly slow and most tasks can take up to 20 minutes to complete, especially when it involves RNG. Miners are going to be severely punished for this on ocean maps. Nobody wants to drag a dead rotting body from the bottom of the acid ocean on nadir, when drones or sea critters are all over it. It's game over for the miner, because he'll either never be revived, or have a giant chance of being cloned with the puritan defect and not be able to play the round again. 

Giant counterpoint to the false statement people having a lifeline against antagonists is a big problem for people playing antagonist: You spawn with 0 gear. You're a stupidly easy target for the antagonist now, and most of them thrive off of your death. Why would a vampire or changeling complain about another body to eat.

Oh yeah and with this PR, instead of just being a huge naked gearless target you're a huge naked gearless target who has arms for legs, or less max health, or falls over when out of stamina, ETC. Or you just explode. For the crime of wanting to be able to play the game, installed because one person thought playing the game was boring.