Sec Equipment being overtuned

[Emimiyu]

Imo the limitation of secoff's slot in RP is already enough with the number of antags that shows up on a round. Also, adding more secass slot wouldn't help seeing that people are using secass/brobocop as last resort when they see the role is full anyway. Though I do see number of sec on highpop seems a bit low than before (either because school break is over, post-tide burn out, and influx of new players).

Honestly, I do not play classic enough to understand the combat mechanic of sec, but my complain on RP with stun is when a certain interaction with antag happens and it involves with security showing up, it is so easy for the event outcome to side with sec if they click first after a conversation. Hostage situation when you hold a gun to someone's head? Stun them until the weapon is down. "Well, but there is a roleplay requirement," which is Yes, but I have mixed feelings of how outcomes are based on who click faster after a nanosec of communication. Another issue that stun can just cut off what someone is typing. I don't really know if there should be a solution to this because it can be just A. Player issue B. Risk you take for interacting with security (Just like kotlol said, avoid sec at all cost if you don't want to be stunned)

[JORJ949]

Made a PR to make disks a bit riskier to leave lying around that this discussion may find interesting: https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/21708

I also JUST came up with the following idea, so it may be awful considering I haven't had time to think about it:
Some sort of security management device that each officer can register in, depositing their disk and pointer, and registering their health implant, the UI would show an image of the person when they registered, their (shown) name when registered, their status (Okay/Crit/Dead) updating every 30s, and buttons to collect their disk/pointer, emagging this would remove all stored records and eject stored disks/pointers. With the status indicator you can remove the automatic PDA message so you have to go check if someone is dead, allowing larger time between sec murder and sec knowing the murder happened. Could also have a delete button for records like the cloner so you dont need a traitor item to sabotage sec's communications and single out a target (presently the radio jammer).

[Kotlol]

I remember an old topic that I want to paraphraze here (not gonna look for it)

"Security vs Antagonists isn't just a balance of items/powers. It's also about different skill bases"

Essentially... it means Security vs Antags depends on the skill of players and for a while people complained about antags being too strong... and it quickly became: "Security doesn't coordinate and detain. They ran in swinging their batons to only get bananapeel slipped and their batons taken and used against them"

Essentially security was too stupid.
Then security got way more skilled and coordinated. We got more HoSes each round so there was more direction. Then antags started complaining that SECURITY IS TOO STRONG, but it quickly became known this was the intentional design.

Eitherway as I see it. Security is balanced to deal with the best and most coordinated antags. (Such as Gangs and Nukies)
And to your typical traitor... security seems busted. Cause it's 1 guy vs the whole of security.

[Annoyed Egg]

I find overall, as a main player, that security is pretty fine in its current balance state. Kind of like what Kotlol said I definitely feel the balance is more effected by skill and experience than merely toys to play with. Stuff like chemistry, TTVs, and engine hotwires/power gloves/PTL if used well can be pretty busted just to name a few.

If anything could at all be re-balanced I could only really point out speifs and traitors, as while they're fine enough IMO I could see something like scaling rewards/TC based off sec staffing work but that would probably break TC economy in its own way. (another factor instead of staffing could potentially be hours played of the antag and sec members? not sure about this one esp due to stuff like returning players and essentially "punishing" older players for their longer playtime though)

[JORJ949]

What if we upgrade the printout to provide a rough estimation of how dangerous the shift will be taking into account:
- Sec to antag ratio
- Sec to antag hour ratio
- What kind of antags there are
- For revs, how many heads there are
- If there are "high threat" antags, such as command or the detective

Just so security has an idea going into it how dangerous the shift will be.

[Kotlol]

What if we upgrade the printout to provide a rough estimation of how dangerous the shift will be taking into account:
- Sec to antag ratio
- Sec to antag hour ratio
- What kind of antags there are
- For revs, how many heads there are
- If there are "high threat" antags, such as command or the detective

Just so security has an idea going into it how dangerous the shift will be.

Doesn't work... also will be meta abused.

Since what if people do not pick these roles on purpose then late join?
Also what about latejoin antags?

The printout only prints out for the round start.. but any late joining? NON!

[KikiMofo]

Theres always going to be strong players. Its just the nature of the game and the fact that its been going for over a decade now.
You can't really nerf the players and nerfing gear/weapons just makes it harder for everyone.
I can't think of a way to change the sec vs antag balance because of that.
If a real robust player shows up as antag one day and decides, "I feel like rampaging today." Thats just how it is.
Making gear worse isn't going to stop them. Itll just make it harder for others.
Same for security though we do have rules for security that make it so they aren't being a buzzkill and long time players understand that.
But when it comes to antags they are free to do what they want.
At least in classic. I don't know about RP.

[NanoDano]

I dont disagree that the shotgun and smg are strong but i wouldnt nerf them too much because its important for low skill players to have something to crutch on so they dont get robusted every game. Dont forget this is a roleplaying game at heart

[Lord_earthfire]

EDIT: Rereading this what would probably work pretty nicely is decreasing sec slots on RP only, due to the much slower pace and tamer rounds where antags need to escalate with security before deleting them with a shotgun.

That honestly sounds like a good idea. Keeps the balancing in lowpop while it makes it not that lopsided in highpop like it currently is.

[Cal]

EDIT: Rereading this what would probably work pretty nicely is decreasing sec slots on RP only, due to the much slower pace and tamer rounds where antags need to escalate with security before deleting them with a shotgun.

already a thing. population based.

[Lord_earthfire]

already a thing. population based.

As far as i know the number of sec slots is not set in stone at round starts and grows with late join, is it? Because if it isn't, and i feel like that is the case, the amount of secoff slots grows with latejoins while the antag count does not, which could explain some imbalances during high-pop. I experienced quite an improvement when leah added the functionality of partly counting non-readied players for antag count.

Aaaaanyway, because thinking about sec balance made me think of other issues/pet-peeves i have, i made a PR as a small suggestion to combat some of the worse aspects of sec equipment use: https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/21796
(I know you can do the same with the taser shotgun, but that runs under "if it switches to use an alternative for the same effect, pull out the nerf bat again")