Succumb microbomb change

[SomeOlFellow]

I have seen quite a few times where an antagonist will use succumb to manually detonate microbombs within them. Suicides have a relatively low chance to set off microbombs to my knowledge (or don't at all) and succumb is basically like doing suicide. The risk to using microbombs is the little control you have over them, and people can buy up to 10 microbombs to give an explosion similar to a TTV. 

Using the succumb command does have its uses, such as dying on the ground for 3 minutes in an a-zone and wanting to get it over with, or to make the timing of your death dramatic in roleplay, but using the succumb command should not detonate microbombs. As it is now, it can be used the moment you enter crit to die on the spot before anyone can really react, someone being in crit is not something you notice quickly, usually it only occurs to people once they hear the first gasp, but you can explode before even hitting that point with the right set up (such as taking a high amount of tox damage, which is invisible to anyone who isn't a doctor) then entering crit through some other form of damage to then explode before anyone knows what's going on.

It doesn't feel fair to face, nor is it fun to be a victim to it, and sure they can't be cloned but generally anyone around them won't be able to be cloned either, and you can easily take out an entire security team (along with whatever department they're in) with a 10 microbomb detonation since generally security doesn't back off until the person is in crit when they're going lethal, and this can be triggered even when they're not going lethal just by using the right setup.

I don't see any reason to not make this change, as allowing someone to manually detonate microbombs was an issue before with the change to how it interacts with suicide. While it does require a bit more effort than just doing a suicide, it's just as unpreventable under most circumstances.

[Kateaclysm]

Yeah, it's a little silly. I don't mind micros as a final "fuck you" for an antagonist, but I've seen some antagonist loadouts where they just gear up with 12 micros and then have a very easy way to get themselves into crit, like strong toxins, or a pipe bomb. If we're allowing a 100% success rate with the only caveat being that you're in crit and you succumb, what was the point of the suicide restriction in the first place? Suicide may be quicker and sometimes instant but it's also extremely simple to put yourself in crit and slap "succumb" on your command bar. Microbombs are incredibly cheap for the damage they cause, and I feel like they should not be able to be triggered reliably, regardless of the method used. Almost feels like the 100% activation on succumb was an oversight.

[Lord_earthfire]

Dunno, microbomb suicide not 100% triggering is kind of silly anyway.

In the end, 10-12 microbombs are a waste of TC you could achieve with a welding tank full of black powder or a ttv.

[Johnny Faith]

This would make microbombs absolutely useless with how long crit times are in this game, and encourage security to do even more throw-'em-out-the-airlock executions with little chance for someone to get back into the game on classic or to extend their roleplay if on RP.

[freedo5]

I think part of the appeal of microbombs is being able to control them even if you are dying in crit, at the end of the day they aren't something people spam to obliterate the station in my experience. Producing mass gun powder or TTVs and teleporting them to the right places is much more destructive and people can actually do very little against that too when all you need to do to annhilate the station is keep a signaler in your pocket and press a button at sight of a taser.

[klushy225]

I feel microbombs are a little strong, however, can be easily overshadowed by other simple means of destruction. Additionally, an entire security team should know better than to crowd around someone who is very likely about to explode. It happens, security dies and that's that sometimes. I don't think microbombs need to be nerfed, I think they're fine where they're at.

[Mouse]

Part of the purpose of microbombs is to punish mindless violence, both on the crew's end and on the antags' end.  I've used a well-timed succumb to take out rampagers I found particularly obnoxious (with a clonescan first) before.  If you're going for greentext and your goals aren't overly violent it's an effective way to get security off your back.

edit: also, tactical succumbs are a very important part of good nukie play - if the crew gets your weapon your team is usually fucked and explosions have a good chance of taking out the weapon or at least your ammo pouch

edit2: and that gear destruction isn't just important on nukeops rounds; i've ended rounds with multiple firearms and melee weapons as a nonantag because we happened to have a lot of rampagers who weren't nearly as robust as they thought they were and who didn't see the need for micros - which ends up being unfair to the traitors trying to be a bit more subtle with their murder because if i stumble across them murdering (or if, god forbid, i'm their target) my options are now no longer yellowhand/chairflip/rat them out over radio

[ju45he]

Dying is part of the game and not every death needs or should be preventable, especially not when a traitor decides specifically to use their last stand to take out as many people as they can with them.

Something something this is a roleplaying game

[Lt487]

I feel this is fine to keep as the price the traitor has to pay in order kill people with microbombs is to also kill themselves (unless you get creative). There are many other powerful explosive devices that can do similar things and don't require you to gib in order for them to go off.

[JORJ949]

I think the succumb is fine, what im not so sure on is it triggering from a full health suicide at all, even though its only a chance. Microbombs are meant to take someone down with you who was killing you, succumb just makes sure they cant run away in time, suicide means "ah seccy mc secface just arrested me, better type suicide in my command bar and gib them for doing their job!"

[Emimiyu]

Agreed with earthfire that there are 0 tc way to just bomb people and wipe them out. Micros isn't really cheap when I can just fill my storage with mousetrap pipebomb and round remove security by just one click search on my inventory.

Mght be a fallacy thinking, but the thing with crit is that it doesn't always stay long and something can just killed you without letting you crit gasp. For example, derringer on hemophiliac with athletic, cardiac arrest remissive, and stuff like amanitin build up. And people doesn't always get crit right near 100 dmg either.

And imo, sec shouldn't beating up people by crowding them until they deathgasp if they don't want to be microbombed. There is a reason why people do either spacing or putting them in a podbay chair. If you can beat up someone to crit, at that point, you can just... stun them and put them into portabrig to execute them somewhere else (or space them)

[Lefinch]

Hi, guy who does exactly this here. I'll succumb for a microbomb. I'd rather not, especially on RP because it cuts short the "Ha ha ha, last laugh guess what I got a surprise for you" moment I actually want. That hollywood "Pull the body over oh no they're beeping everyone duck!" thing that sets the scene, lets you have a laugh evil guy laugh and perish in cinematic (and lethal) fashion.

What actually happens is a natural pathway of people jumping over themselves to heal the slightest papercut. I'm not suggesting we change this, it is an inevitable force of nature in a game of mediborgs and doctors (and security officers or even normal crew who might both have qualms about people becoming a corpus while they habeas them) It is -exceptionally- difficult to actually die in this game, and I would argue without changing (and in changing, probably having a profound impact on the game beyond one traitor item) would become a far more common inevitability.

So in the zero sum game of fighting doctors for the moment, having my finger over the succumb dead man's switch the moment I hear the inevitable scanner noise I feel is just how the dilemma ends up. I'll hold on as long as I can, and sometimes you get a chance to get that speech off (which is -also- useful for escalating/signalling that hey, I'm about to detonate you should probably get out of the blast range if you're not aware) but I don't feel bad about flipping the switch.

I think trying to use them more creatively (say, in others, or the mindhacked, or a chicken for a definitive and cute time bomb) is certainly better too, but discussing the least interesting use of traitor tools versus their better ones is something you can do for all of them and that becomes more of an argument about how often it's cropping up and what the ratio of good to bad is.

That's entirely separate from stacking those microbombs, which we regularly see ideas tossed about I really like like making that have either a diminishing return, potential increased hazard, or obvious tell. If people felt like changing this up I'm all for that. I personally feel that could be tackled without fundamentally changing how succumb works with them.

[Kateaclysm]

That's entirely separate from stacking those microbombs, which we regularly see ideas tossed about I really like like making that have either a diminishing return, potential increased hazard, or obvious tell. If people felt like changing this up I'm all for that. I personally feel that could be tackled without fundamentally changing how succumb works with them.

Yeah, this. Sometimes i feel like succumb isnt the problem, and it's more the amount of microbombs itself. We removed the macrobomb ages ago, so why can you still spend 12tc and get the exact same effect? I remember someone in deadchat the other day suggesting that there be a purchase limit or diminishing returns after a certain point, and I feel like this is a good way to go about it.