Sec Equipment being overtuned

[JORJ949]

AS A CLASSIC PLAYER:

As someone who plays a fair bit on both sides I really don't feel like security is too strong, if I want to escape its not too hard to plan a way out and 9 times out of 10 if I want to wipe sec I can with just a little prep time, security SHOULD be a threat to you as antag that you have to prep for and I think the current balance is fine, maybe with the exception of the SMG.

I think security training adding a difference to sec weapons is a good idea to nerf how strong it is for antags, because it is VERY strong.

[klushy225]

I play exclusively HoS for the most part, and I do agree that security is way too strong most of the time. Does security take no skill to play, though? Absolutely not. Security can be an extremely stressful and at times unrewarding experience, and as good as the stun SMG and shotgun is, you still need to know how to play the game to use them correctly. I am all for the disorient changes, though, and am looking forward to when/if they are tested on a large scale.

This bit might be a bit of a hot take, however. I think either the pinpointers or the clone disks have got to go. Currently, security is nigh immortal with their various nets of safety, the two most important being the pinpointer and clone data disk. A security officer with just a bit of luck and preparation has:

A stuns that can shut down a fight nearly instantly
Body armor that significantly protects the wearer
A clone scan that can be used right after death
a pinpointer to find their lost gear/corpse, assuming it wasn't stolen or destroyed
A clone disk just in case john security forgot his scan or it was somehow wiped from the system
a windshield making mindhacking extremely difficult
and a health implant that tracks the moment they die and their location.

In order to permanently kill a security officer, you have to address most of if not ALL of these points. A traitor in theory could also have all this going for them, however, it would require significant effort as opposed to this being more or less the default state for security.

[Silent Majority]

I like Glamurio's suggestion.

[freedo5]

I dislike the stun meta as much as the next person, and i'm for the disorient changes, but complaining and moaning about the taser SMG and shotgun when you have options like stims and other drugs, and then insinuating that the person using them is merely "unskilled" leaves a bad taste in my mouth and reeks of bitterness.

I agree, the issue with stuns is that they can just cut the action short in an unsatisfying manner, the people that want to play with a certain loadout aren't there to ruin your fun specifically, they are just playing the game the way they like.

I will add that i do love the current taser options for security, i think the big issue is that the shotgun and the smg can very easily land the first shot on you, it's easier to dodge 1 or 2 projectiles than it is avoiding 5, and the first hit leads pretty often to a second hit.

[mona]

My solution to the disk/implant/impmant/clonescan issue is simple, elegant, revolutionary,

All sec are now puritans NT doesn't care enough about your degreeless cheap ass to clone you, they'll just promote the clown, it's all the same

Sec is fine, we have this conversation every 5 months

[klushy225]

Most security players are Puritans anyway, and people still clone them. I think this is a conversation worth having- there's a good reason it crops up every so often.

[Kateaclysm]

I play exclusively HoS for the most part, and I do agree that security is way too strong most of the time. Does security take no skill to play, though? Absolutely not. Security can be an extremely stressful and at times unrewarding experience, and as good as the stun SMG and shotgun is, you still need to know how to play the game to use them correctly. I am all for the disorient changes, though, and am looking forward to when/if they are tested on a large scale.

This bit might be a bit of a hot take, however. I think either the pinpointers or the clone disks have got to go. Currently, security is nigh immortal with their various nets of safety, the two most important being the pinpointer and clone data disk. A security officer with just a bit of luck and preparation has:

A stuns that can shut down a fight nearly instantly
Body armor that significantly protects the wearer
A clone scan that can be used right after death
a pinpointer to find their lost gear/corpse, assuming it wasn't stolen or destroyed
A clone disk just in case john security forgot his scan or it was somehow wiped from the system
a windshield making mindhacking extremely difficult
and a health implant that tracks the moment they die and their location.

In order to permanently kill a security officer, you have to address most of if not ALL of these points. A traitor in theory could also have all this going for them, however, it would require significant effort as opposed to this being more or less the default state for security.

This is a big thing, yeah. Stun meta is one thing, but I often avoid getting clone scans on full or even half-full sec teams because disks are just too reliable and REALLY feel like overkill when security can also have a clone scan. Perhaps a data disk could be taken as a two point utility credit purchase? You forego any additional tools like a forensic scanner or robust donuts in exchange for a relatively guaranteed comeback. With how strong robust donuts are, I'd wager many would rather opt for their additional options over the disk.


All of this being said, most of the protections we have thus far are reasonable and are implemented thanks to previous balance woes- like how the mind protection was given to security to fix the fact that mindhacking them was objectively the best choice. The pinpointer - I presume - is likely a decent way to give a tradeoff to antagonists gunning for batons and security weaponry. You'll have an extremely powerful tool, but you'll also be constantly giving security your position while it is in your possession. If we tie baton and taser effectiveness to security training, it's not entirely unreasonable to remove pinpointer support as a tradeoff, since antagonists will not be able to harness the full strength of the kit they've stolen.

[klushy225]

great points here, yeah. Some of these nets need to either be cut or balanced. I don't think there would be any harm in testmerging a 'rebalanced security' without some of these fallbacks for a day.

[Confuseddp]

Does this mean I can finally play wizard without getting edged by a stun gun?

[mona]

Most security players are Puritans anyway, and people still clone them. I think this is a conversation worth having- there's a good reason it crops up every so often.

It crops up because ss13 players complain about everything, it's not that deep
Most sec also aren't puritan. But i  sure do know since I'm one of the few that actually does take it (I also audit medical records as doctor for puritans specifically and a 50 player RP round averages 3 or 4 puritans with an average of 0 being sec, you're welcome for this useless info)

[klushy225]

I would argue that most security mains are puritan players, or at least, when I played the most they were. There is a difference between wanting change and complaining. I think these are all valid criticisms of the current state of security.

[mona]

i've played for years. some years are kind to sec. some are not. disks have been in for years because there's times when they're really needed, and times when sec has had the chance to level up and get consistent people who learn to minimize mistakes and thus rarely need to rely on those things. ditto pinpointers, ditto implants (you do NOT want to go back to mindhack sec days, what a fun time that was [!]). the health implants have been nerfed at least two times. to kate's point, robust donuts have been nerfed twice. stun cap time has been nerfed. baton energy use was nerfed. each model of taser has been nerfed. energy use per taser shot has been nerfed. wavegun has been nerfed at some other point because it was genuinely too strong. i think trying to make balance complaints from more limited experience in this game without knowing the background of how much walancing has occurred with these items to get them to the state they are today and without having seen much of the Really Shit Times and why some of this crap all exists is shortsighted.

i'm not interested in balancing around the skill of a crop of consistent, good, trained players because there are always new players coming and old ones leaving and soon enough it will be some other poor cohort's group to go through the woes of it until they also "git gud", as it were.

[klushy225]

Even if this or that has already been nerfed, does that mean it's been balanced correctly or nerfed enough? I would say that 7 times out of 10 security comes out of a round victorious, and while I know it's not about winning or losing, I feel there is an inherent balance issue here. A counter point worth mentioning, however, is the tendency for security to be defeated when traitors team up. To this end I do think applying security officer training to sec gear would be a good idea. Additionally, the 'screw the newbies' mindset isn't really healthy for the growth and longevity of the game. Playing security or as an antagonist should be challenging, yes, but balanced. Of course, a 5k hour secmain will have a significant edge on a newer antagonist, but the security player should not ALWAYS beat the antagonist even in this scenario. The newer player should have a chance.

edit: Forgot to add this, but simply: Times change, nothing stays the same and for good reason.

[Carton]

In my personal opinion, I don't think security needs large scale balance changes or nerfs, security isn't necessarily difficult to absolutely roll over, especially if you have experience and prep time. I've seen tons of folks solo an entire security team with the right tools. Stuns are volatile, sometimes they're extremely effective, sometimes theyre absolutely useless, it depends on the situation and the tools you use to counter them. If anything I think balance changes to the antags would make more sense, rather than to security.

I do think that changes to stuff like medical alerts and such would be nice so it's more possible to kill someone important quietly would be nice however, it's difficult to pull off more RP oriented 1 on 1 kills when most of security and medical runs to your location once the alert goes off. Perhaps a longer delay? I'd prefer not to remove the alert entirely because I understand it's frustrating to die accidentally and have nobody notice for an extended period.

Additionally, I'm not a fan of the prescence of certain rude behavior in this thread. I understand that game balance is something folks are passionate about, but being hostile to other players is not something that should be acceptable in what is meant to be a good faith discussion.

[mona]

Additionally, the 'screw the newbies' mindset isn't really healthy for the growth and longevity of the game.

I don't think you read correctly. i am of the opinion new players can be thrown a bone, the ones I'm concerned about, however, are sec players, not necessarily antags. and thus, i think nerfing the capacity of newer players to figure it out unless they explicitly have the 5k hour sec main on the team to guide them isn't good.

if this is the core of it, i don't think we'll ever agree on the subject since we're interested in different sides of new player experience.

Additionally, I'm not a fan of the prescence of certain rude behavior in this thread.

you can just say me instead of being passive aggressive about it. i'm incredibly jaded, it's true, i'm tired of thhe "we should nerf sec" discussions every six months because ultimately what i said is true: collaborative open-source community game development means that there are always people who want to iterate on xyz (as someone who has also dev'd for this game for 5 years, some of it worthwhile, some of it really is just iterating changes like that); i've also played a lot of sec and a lot of hos and this server and ss13 in general and am happy with where the game balance is at now and don't see much need to change it for aforementioned reasons; i'd rather be looking at ways to diversify antag kits than keep poking numbers or removing only to re-add in 2 years to remove to re-add.

again: i think the capacity of playing well as security shouldn't be some big esoteric thing you only figure out after 1 year and 1k hours of playing and if you have you and your three best buds ever running the team with you. safeguards to help new players feel confident in the role and not get defeated too fast by it are good.