i think goon should be an 18+ server, like everyone else.

[Violetsaber]

While my perspective on this might not be universally shared, i still think a lot of other players feel the same way. If we changed the age to 18+, it would not just affect any under-aged players currently playing, but it would also affect every player who still does not wish to deal with sexual or even overtly romantic themes or any other behavior unsuitable for teens. For starters, equating cartoonish violence (yes even as brutal as it gets), movie-esque alcohol consumption and incredibly unrealistic drug use with sexual themes and topics is insincere and purposefully not seeing the difference between those two fields. None of these things should be done by someone younger than 18, but seeing something and doing something is vastly different.

No matter how extreme the violence is in this game, it's still just pixels on a screen and both parties know that this is a game. Little kids play cowboys and pretend to shoot each other. Violent make believe like this is nothing new. There isn't a need to raise the age to 18+ because even kids as young as 13 are pretty good at seperating a little sprite exploding and real life violence. So if it isn't the violence, it would affect what people say to each other and what they RP. 

Personally, i don't want to engage with kids if i can avoid it. I'm an adult, i prefer to hang out with other adults and play video games with adults. I don't go out of my way to be around kids but i also try to be nice and respectful with the kids i do encounter. I believe that most things that would be inappropriate to say to a teen would also be inappropriate to say to a stranger on the internet. Adults do and say adult things, but frankly i worry that upping the age limit is going to just negatively affect what people say to each other. Even if we say now that nothing about the existing rules would change, this change would still have a knock on effect further down the line. The servers are now 18+, maybe we can say some more vulgar things now? Now that we are all adults, maybe we can speak a bit harsher with each other? It would just invite worse behavior. Something that is a-okay between adult friends would still be a no-go among adult strangers playing a video game, or to think about the context of ss13's fictional setting, a work environment. 

I prefer that goon is pg13 solely because it makes me personally more comfortable playing this game. I get it, dealing with kids is stressful and often annoying, but frankly if it can't be said around a teen then i also don't want it directed at me by strangers while i try to get the engine started, treat wounds or mop floors. I don't want to open another can of worms but the simple truth is also that one person's harmless adult banter makes other adults deeply uncomfortable for one reason or the other. The only problem that i can see with kids around is having some players who are more immature and unreasonable, but plenty of adults aren't any better about that either. 

TL;DR: i don't think anything on the servers is unsuitable for pg13 and anything that would change by making it 18+ would just sour the atmosphere overall, sexual or not.
(this ended up a lot longer and more rambly than i intended. also it's very late and english isn't my first language :-P)

[Jolyne985]

The his is my FIRST time using the forums - bare witu me.

**PICTURE THIS**:
You’re 17. You get on goonstation to have some fun. You realize that if’s not usually the same experience as you usually have. Stuff that isn’t really talked about is being talked about. It feels odd.

1. GOONSTATION ACCURATELY DEPICTS DRUG USAGE AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF WITHDRAWL. PEOPLE DON’T REALIZE THAT IT IS A PIXEL VIDEO GAME. IT DOES NOT PROMOTE DRUG USAGE!!

2. GOONSTATION FREQUENTLY BWOINKS PEOPLE FOR BARELY NSFW CONTENT!! YEAH!! YOU HEARD ME!!

3. IT IS PIXEL FUCKING ART!! FARTING ON A BIBLE DOES NOT SHOW YOU EVERY FUCKING INNARD OF YOU FLYING OUT IN A 4K HIGH RES CellULAR DECONPOSITION!! IT IS NOT VERY REALISITC!!

For fucks sake. I found this game when I was 16 through a roblox game that had a space station 13 reference. I thought it was neat. But EVERY SERVER I WENT TOHSD A “NO MINORS” warning on it. ODD! But what for? The NSFW content? The “oh we hate minors lol lmfao” on i..? GOONSTATION WAS MY SAFE SPACE. BECAUSE I WAS ABLE TO FREELY TALK ANBOUR MY AGE THERE. GOOD LORD, CREW. STOP TRYING TO GATEKEEP THINGS THAT DON’T NEED TO BE GATEKEPT.

all for my rant. Goon should be at least 16+.

[AGreywolfe]

i feel that this is more of a rules/admin environment issue.

there is absolutely 0 question that Goon IS an 18+ game, if this were ever looked at by the ESRB, PEGI, or and Federal Agency they would all agree, children under 18 should NOT be playing this game. But at the same time GTA IV was rated M and i played that at age 13.

The issue from where i sit is just one of the rules being intentionally strict to foster a family friendly environment. While yes, this does make the game more approachable, it also makes the game more hostile to average adults. That and admins tend to lean on the more strict side when it comes to how people treat each other in game, botany hotboxes the halls every round for 6 months, sure no problem, someone will patch it out eventually. Jonny Staffie beats someone to death while being non-antag, no bad. someone calls someone a dick repeatedly over the radio as "rp" for being upset, sure fine. someone accidentally slips up and calls someone a b***h once, bad, admin pm, do it again and you're banned (im exaggerating yes, but ive seen plenty of bans for language). Honestly my biggest sticking point about this whole argument is WHERE the rules are decided to be enforced. i can rip someone's arm off and beat them to death with it, i can force-feed someone meth by injecting it in their food. but i cant call someone a p***y? but calling them a dick is okay? oh but dick is known to mean a jerk, okay cool, ask any adult and they know p***y means coward. So again i think this whole argument boils down to the game is 18+ but the rules are E10+

[Mordent]

it also makes the game more hostile to average adults.

Not being able to use your edgy curse words that are sex-adjacent is not making it hostile. Do you view going to the supermarket to be a hostile experience? Adults are capable of exercising control over their speech.

[AGreywolfe]

No, but I also don't expect my arm to be torn off or to be fed meth at the grocery store. And I play here so obviously I can control my speech, but it doesn't mean I don't see the blatant hypocrisy of the rules enforcement vs the setting and major themes of the game.

[Meowgical]

At risk of sounding like a ‘think of the children’ type of person I think raising the age to 16+ at the least would be probably safer and a bit more enjoyable. While regrettable some players wouldn’t be able to play, I think it’s pretty important and central that there’s some kind of little nudge and nod that those younger probably aren’t suited for the game. It’s very dialogue and player interaction focused with real players, and it’s pretty fair to say that kids kind of lack the maturity and emotional intelligence to take something not at face value, or as a personal attack, or be negatively effected far deeper than an adult generally would by violent, cruel, or overall more serious discussion. This is with acknowledgement of the game, despite the simple art style, still having gorey content, violence, the various suicide methods, drugs and alcohol. While of course many of us, me included, played games we weren’t meant to as a child, this doesn’t necessarily mean it was okay as fun as it was. More so, those games came with the express warning that this was unsuitable. Goonstation is unique in that 13+ is permissible/suggested as an appropriate age to play. Which I disagree with.

Arguably, I think having a bigger space between children, teenagers, adults is a good thing—you have to change the way you approach the former in a more drastic way to ensure you don’t cause them distress or harm or even accidentally introduce to them drugs and alcohol etc,.
Of course the game will never add or permit sexual/romantic/suggestive content. Regardless of the suggested age rule change, I don’t see how that would lead to a change in how we approach that content that will stay out of the game.
I think by permitting and signing off on extremely young players, we put them at risk of seeing content that is wholly inappropriate for their age and something they are not at the maturity yet to be exposed to, absorb the scenes infront of them and impact of them in a healthy manner, and respond to accordingly.

[Mordent]

No, but I also don't expect my arm to be torn off or to be fed meth at the grocery store. And I play here so obviously I can control my speech, but it doesn't mean I don't see the blatant hypocrisy of the rules enforcement vs the setting and major themes of the game.

Right, but that doesn't happen to you as a player when you play the game. You, as a player, can choose to have your character use words/phrases that are permitted by our rules, or you can choose not to and then have a conversation with the admins about it. Fitting within the accepted communication format is something that is everywhere. People who don't don't typically stay welcome in that environment for very long.

I think framing the inability to use "adult" language in this space as "hostile to adults" is an incredibly hot take.

---

I think by permitting and signing off on extremely young players, we put them at risk of seeing content that is wholly inappropriate for their age and something they are not at the maturity yet to be exposed to, absorb the scenes infront of them and impact of them in a healthy manner, and respond to accordingly.

Children will continue to play games that are rated above their age, as they always have done. By keeping the expected audience stated as 13+ (or 16+, whatever) we acknowledge their presence and that is part of our strategy towards protecting them. I would much, much prefer the "downsides" of allowing our younger players to keep playing (honestly I don't really see many at all) than pretending they don't exist/banning them as we find them, which only caters towards an unsafe environment for them.

[Lefinch]

I never weighed in on this because ultimately I don't think anyone's going to like my answer on any side of the discussion. However, may as well put it out there because of a recurring theme of "but there is already adult content in the game so why not just make it 18+"

I would be 100% fine with making the game 18+, but then I wouldn't shift the rules in any way to reflect that change. While of course I assume everyone here has the best of intent, I've had too much personal experience trying to moderate people who are legally adults in an adults only space doing things that adults do but actually behaving like absolute oiks. My agenda for supporting a shift to 18+ is entirely motivated by making it marginally easier for admins to assume you're not a child and that's about it. No "but this is an adult space" counterarguements, no "We're all consenting adults here" just "You have to be 18+ to be here, but you still have to act like that's not the case"

This is obviously probably not a popular take for the multiple people who have fairly voiced their opinion, nor probably people who are content with the status quo. I'm cool with that I'll work with whatever result we end up with. But if it ever ends up being a legal thing, I'd endorse this route over anything else.

[AGreywolfe]

I'll admit the "hostile to adults" was a bit of an extreme take. But it still doesn't change the fact that the rules are hypocritical in the environment the game presents. And it's clear the community around the game acts way beyond the limit of what the rules here allow. The biggest population wave on ss13 in general is from the sseth tide. I get that Goon admins want to foster a more kid friendly environment but there's way worse shit in this game than the language. My point isn't that the rules are inherently bad but that they only serve to restrict language more than needed and, by nature of the game, fail to make the situation more "kid friendly" than other games like COD.

And I'm not saying people should ignore the rules, but that doesn't mean they cant call a spade a spade when they see a clear conflict of interest with the rules and the game they play.

[Mordent]

And it's clear the community around the game acts way beyond the limit of what the rules here allow.

Could you give an example of how the community acts that is inconsistent with our rules?

[jan.antilles]

I get that Goon admins want to foster a more kid friendly environment but there's way worse shit in this game than the language. My point isn't that the rules are inherently bad but that they only serve to restrict language more than needed and, by nature of the game, fail to make the situation more "kid friendly" than other games like COD.

The language rules have nothing to do with children, full stop. I don't want to be called slurs or hear sex talk, and I'm 36. It's not about making a "family friendly" game, it's about cultivating an atmosphere that isn't shitty.

---

Other than just responding to other posts to clarify things, I'll make my own response:

I do not support changing the age limit on Goonstation.

The only thing that changing the age limit would do would be "criminalizing" being under 16/18. The kids are still going to play here, but now they feel like they need to hide things, right out the gate. I would rather not interact with someone who's hiding being underage. I would also rather not have kids be put in rough social situations and feel like they can't talk to people (especially admins!) because they're afraid of being kicked out.

Frankly, the way you treat teenagers shouldn't be all that different from the way you treat fellow adults. What, you have to be less crude? You have to be more thorough when you explain things? You have to overlook an emotional reaction? Just do that anyway. It's a better way to treat anyone, regardless of their age.

[AGreywolfe]

Again to point out the hypocrisy of the rules, if it's about not using slurs then why is dick, a negatively connotated gendered slur, explicitly allowed but p***y, a negatively connotated gendered slur, is explicitly not?
I don't take issue with the existence of the rule but it's poor writing combined with lack of a black and white banned word list, is a major friction point I have with it. If gendered slurs are banned then ban ALL gendered slurs, if you're going to pick and choose then provide a clear off limits list.

As for the age thing I'll reiterate what I said earlier. Like it or not Goonstation IS an 18+ game by nature of what it is, I dont think there should be an age restriction though because that doesn't stop kids from accessing liveleak or redtube. But it's important to recognize that Goon, at its core, contains adult themes that are not suitable for kids.

[Kotlol]

This topic got revived again... but this time for:
"Why is the line drawn for certain rules?"

As someone who got warned a few times for language like saying b****h (not calling someone that, but I say it like "Ah fuck")
I did apoligse for it and never done it again. No need to argue with admins.

But... I do find it odd that P****y is banned. As it's probably the weakest slur on the list. Let alone the multiplue meanings to that word and what it could mean. (like cat for example).

The reason "DICK" is allowed is because of names. If you ban "Dick" you ban people who are named "Dick" wich would be a "DICK MOVE"
Again multiplue meanings strike again but Dick is seen as an actual name that people can have and punishing someone for using an OFFICAL NAME is kinda rude.

But I seen this debate several times and I believe the admins always say this:
"We ban certain swears and slurs depending on the cultural reference to them."
Words change over time and their meanings too... but the admins do not have to discuss how bad every word is and their historical and cultural reference.
And while I understand while something like FUCK, a known heavy slur/swear is allowed. Where as "That word in a song about a P-cat" isn't can be where an odd line is drawn. But it's not sweat of my brow. I barely swear in the game as is.

The 18+ debate has been going on alot and if we are gonna bring in rating systems... this again changes over time. SS13 is over 10 years old.. a whole decade of change and trust me when I say.. I seen "All Ages Movies" where they swear once and even show nudity from way back in the 90's/80's.
Some games even have some scary / crazy stuff yet 7+. Why? I do not know.
So we can say rating is kinda whack over the decades.... but honestly... I do NOT care if we are 18+ or not.

Overall I find this debate still abit silly, but atleast in this case wanting to know why you want to draw the line in the sand is not a bad thing. Clarity leads to understanding after all.

Eitherway... I think we picked enough at this debate and I don't think it ever needed this much pages.

[Mordent]

This has never been a discussion about changing the rules, at least from my perspective, and instead one for making the server only playable by adults who would still be bound by our current ruleset.

Players would not suddenly be allowed to start saying things they can't currently, and that some people seem to think that would be the case is my exact point for why making the server 18+ would be detrimental; people would use it as a shield to be worse to each other.

[Frank_Stein]

Do you view going to the supermarket to be a hostile experience?

No, but I also don't expect my arm to be torn off or to be fed meth at the grocery store.

You guys are going to much nicer grocery stores than I'm used to