Prep time and pay off (Discussion/talk)

[Kotlol]

So I got thinking after a post on the one element in SS13 that has been bothering me all the time and I been suggesting things like many others of how to fix it.

And that is the simple act of "Prep time and pay off"

This came in mind when discussing the chef in another topic with how the chef sometimes has to do a lot of waiting and preparing stuff to mostly end up with food they can never serve unless asked, cause leaving it out means "Glutton Mcstaffy" will just eat it and leave.
Or they would end up making it infront of someone wich will take minutes of making it for them only to eat it and finish it.

But it's not just that, it's a lot of jobs that got this "I want to do this, but it might take too long for the pay off" and some are by design perfect. Robotcists and surgeons are long because that's just what it is. Either you learn to deal with your handicap or go under the knife.

But others like the chef (again) and botany.. have what I call "too much down time" and step on eachother's toes as well.
If a botanist gets a harvest going.. it keeps going and going. And if the food is good enough to fill, no one wants to see the chef.
As for the chef... they need to cut things, bake things, make things before they can make something else. It's a lot of messy work.
This is one the reasons I think the chef is underutlizied. The chef decides what the kitchen serves yes.. but if a player wants a specific food and the chef doesn't have the ingridents.. That is dead in the water.
If the chef isn't prepped for it.. it can take very long to get the food ready by grabbing everything and then waiting on something fried.. good lord.

It slowly more and more dawned on me how much more jobs (in mostly the civilian sector) has to do so much for lil pay off/reason and end up being more fun doing things for your own.
Genecists need a lot of prep time and research to get the mutations they want/need or never find it... and then start selling it, but we have a WHOLE THREAD of "Genecists do not care" cause most genecists need the whole shift to sometimes get the perfect thing. It sucks immensly being an antagonist genecist and needing a certain mutation for a gimmick to only never find it...

And I been thinking of stream lining things a lot so these gimmicks become more common and accesiable by either removing inter-department cooperation. (Like the chef wants to make hot chili but botany won't make chili's so he can use his own money to buy some of it from a "Farmer market" , thus avoding botany and cargo)

OR streamlining some departments with new mechanics that basically remove some of the interactions that makes it very engaging , but these methodes would end up not bringing in the highest quality. (I use botany for this comparrison, just putting in a seed in a special cotnainer that instantly grows it for harvest, without giving seeds just the product. Only works on pure seeds not anything mixed)

So now that my thoughts are out there. I want to start a discussion on this kinda stuff. No suggestions or anything... 
I want to discuss the thoughts, feelings and stories on prep time and pay off.

So let the discussion begin!

[Lord_earthfire]

Most of these things you are mentioning come down to "forcing a single outcome".

The staffie that wants a certain product should shut it, the chef is not obliged to make it.

Geneticists is very deliberatly made to NOT guarantee the outcome you want all the time. That's why multiple mutations are as powerfull as they are.

The point is you are incentivized to do the stuff because you want to do the work, not play with the payoff only. And if you don't enjoy the process, well go and do a different job. Which encompasses my opinion about all the "the chemistry rework made making the chems i want tedious and i don't enjoy the process"-players.

This is very much a "the goal is the way, not the result"-situation.

Though, if you really want to play with the payoff, you got to git gud. The 'ol classic "10 minutes and be ready to kill" applies here. And for many things, save maybe the most insane things like T3 chicken eggs, this is not a problem with optimization.

[Kotlol]

This is very much a "the goal is the way, not the result"-situation.

Though, if you really want to play with the payoff, you got to git gud. The 'ol classic "10 minutes and be ready to kill" applies here. And for many things, save maybe the most insane things like T3 chicken eggs, this is not a problem with optimization.

I do agree my examples aren't the best but it got me thinking of it.
I do think some things should be "GIT GUD"
But this doesn't apply to "Botanist/Chemist/Engineer" won't help you. Now it's not a "Skill issue" now it's a "I can't do the thing cause the department is being fussy"

You kinda narrowed it to "skill issue" but some things aren't skill issue.

But it did give me a great way to point out the problem: "10 mins and be ready to kill."

"I am a botanist antag, by rng kept mutating my seed and I ran out of chems since everyone is doing botany today. Now I can't make what I want... and I gotta wait for chemistry or a harvest to get back on track"
Now it's not a skill issue since some plants do just "randomly mutate" especially if you want to work for seething tomato's for example and if everyone is rushing for 10 mins.. you will run out of stuff... so now at 10 mins YOU GOT NOTHING GOOD DAY!
Now is this fair? Well yea... it's 100% fair to be a sad antagonist in a while.

But there is nothing more anger inducing then your plans ruined by elements beyond your control before they started.

The problem with preping for pay off in the end lays in some factors that aren't in your control wich is fine, it's a game. But sometimes you know... what if it could be lessened so it is always a "skill/knowledge issue"

[Lord_earthfire]

"I am a botanist antag, by rng kept mutating my seed and I ran out of chems since everyone is doing botany today. Now I can't make what I want... and I gotta wait for chemistry or a harvest to get back on track"
Now it's not a skill issue since some plants do just "randomly mutate" especially if you want to work for seething tomato's for example and if everyone is rushing for 10 mins.. you will run out of stuff... so now at 10 mins YOU GOT NOTHING GOOD DAY!
Now is this fair? Well yea... it's 100% fair to be a sad antagonist in a while.

But there is nothing more anger inducing then your plans ruined by elements beyond your control before they started.

The problem with preping for pay off in the end lays in some factors that aren't in your control wich is fine, it's a game. But sometimes you know... what if it could be lessened so it is always a "skill/knowledge issue"

Or you could look at what i written earlier:

Most of these things you are mentioning come down to "forcing a single outcome".

You are not oblighed to be able to rush your outcome. For this, beyond just your skill, you will need some luck. Because you are NOT meant to.

You get what you can and need to ponder how to work with it. someone stole botany's goggles already? Try to think how to deal with flashes. Botany's staffed to the brim so you cannot work properly on your deathsplice? Seek for something else to achieve or antagonize the fuck out of these people.

Be creative and flexible. Most stuff that was too consistently happening is nerfed on purpose to either not be consistent or to be delayed.

The only time you need enough skill to brute-force through bad rng is if you are running a gimmick. And in these cases you got more than 10 minutes to work on it, heck, even if it is ready at minute 30 its suficcient.

[meaow589]

I might not understand your post 100% due to my poor English skill.
I assume you mean chef is not much reward and take a time for prepare especial when it a special meal.so I 50% agree with it cooking sometime have a lot of process and some menu is hard to make even less people come to interact with you.(I think that problem also often found in classic server since in the past classic not have hunger and thirst bar) but I think it very fine for me to play chef and spend many time on my food instead spread my food to people.but right now in classic after hunger and thirst added I think I see many people interact more with the chef now which is very good. But one thing I don’t like about chef is there requestation from QM most of the contract are very hard / too much amount to make you might spend a half of round to finish the contract for few thousand credit quite not reasonable and not rewardtive to player to do. If allow chef to make food become more valuable to QM and less work per order I think it gonna be great.

[Kotlol]

You are not oblighed to be able to rush your outcome. For this, beyond just your skill, you will need some luck. Because you are NOT meant to.

"..."

Be creative and flexible. Most stuff that was too consistently happening is nerfed on purpose to either not be consistent or to be delayed.

"..."

Being flexiable and creative is a thing, but yea gimmicks are hard but fun. But if you constantly are flexiable and avoiding single outcomes you end up defaulting to:
"The same easy antag behaviour"

It's how mind hacking security became popular. It was easy and accesiable.

But some things can be a lil bit more accesiable in my opinion. I don't want every antag to strife to go into rancher and make magic eggs and dragon eggs with raptors as their minions. Or a botanist growing certain "death plants"

But variety is the spice of life and I think some things are too hard for too lil pay off. Certain chems in science can be fun for antags to use but we will never see em as much cause "Secret Chem" and "too much time to work on" while the easier chem is right there doing basically the same thing.

It's just more fun for people to go: "Today I will do X insted of A" it's why this game is endlessly replayable in my opinion. And while not every letter in the alphabet has to be accesiable in plans. Some could use it just so something else can happen and in some jobs.. I needs to be done.

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As for my chef example. It's the easiest job with a lot of flexiable options being held back by timers and interactions by others.
The chef is the most busy and needs the most interaction from players and other departments to be the most fufilling and fun.
It ain't just a classic problem, it's also a RP problem that the chef sometimes cannot have their complete fun cause ingridents have to be grown before they can start making certain dishes. It's not awful, but it's an annoyance that brings it down.

I think I may have a suggestion how to mediate it a lil. But thats for something else.

I do think we need more discussion about other jobs that feel like there is too much prep time to and not enough pay off or the opposite. This ain't just antag focussed. It's jobs in general.