Unify Classic and RP Sec accesses

[Silent Majority]

I still think the badge to do a slow door open is a good idea. I think it'd be good on classic too. It'd be a new tool that would be good for both crew and antags. Inspectors have badges too. Itd also be another piece of gear to keep track of and more mischief.

[WhatMG]

I really do like the badge idea, yeah.

[Cropsey]

I don't like the current changes.

I think Joe Average Security without a HoS is already an uphill battle. Even with a HoS it can still be, hell, the HoS doesn't need more work to do on an average shift. It should also be fun for them. Joe Security now has to yell at an AI which may or may not even be there to open a door, or wait for his boss, or wait for someone inside to open the door. All this does is enable miserable antag gimmicks, both for Joe Security and the average crew member- who don’t necessarily want to be trapped in a room with a space-wielding maniac whilst Security are stuck outside. The crew then get mad at security's inability to stop said maniac. Rinse and repeat. Security is hard enough of a role. We don't really need to make it harder.

I'm a little concerned that no matter what people say during the test merge it'll be merged anyways, but if you're going to take anything from me and my opinions: without an alternative way to get into places, this PR cannot be considered a complete thing.

[Meggal Bozale]

You have an alternative: Screwdriver and wirecutters. I think this is good, and really security should be fighting over access for the upper hand.

[Emimiyu]

So, during the test merge, I notice that some doors has weird access or a bit inconsistence. Like on kondaru we are supposed to be able to access science lobby still but for some reason doors that tied to only the lobby can't be accessed. The same issue also happened when APC access on RP got removed, some engineering door was innaccessible because it also tied to APC access.

This is maybe a different topic, but now it is more noticeable since the merge. Might be also why some secoff access seems less than it is supposed to on paper.

[gibusgame]

This doesn't seem to add anything, to be honest. It technically adds more interaction, but "AI, open door." Or "HOS, open door" or "Hey you, open this door." In an emergency isn't really valuable interaction IMO, it's frustrating and difficult to deal with.

From what I've seen the main poins contributing to support of this are:

"They don't need it." Which is vague, and doesn't really justify their removal, since it is actually very useful for security, and is used almost every round on RP where antags do any significant crime.

"Secoffs can abuse their access." This is very much against the RP rules, and should be ahelped when it happens. I admit that this has been a problem in the past, but currently it is rather rare, and I don't believe it justifies taking the hammer to sec access to fix it. This is killing a house spider with a shotgun.

"I dislike the servers having different access levels." This also doesn't seem to justify this change. Both servers are VERY different experiences with extremely different rules, and sec lacking access is much more viable on classic due to any crewmember being allowed to kill or attack with antags at any time for any reason, which cannot be done on RP. It doesn't make sense to make changes simply because the status quo feels wrong to certain people.

Really, I agree the most with Wander, it doesn't add anything and simply adds more frustration, wastes times, and doesn't actually fix the problems it's supposed to aim itself at, and I think this suggestion arises from a fundamental misunderstanding of the differences between security on classic and RP.

I agree that there are certain problems with the access levels, for example the access to borg interfaces, but that'd be better fixed by making changes elsewhere rather than simply nuking security access.

I agree with all of this, and wanted to add: By nuking secoff access because they have the ABILITY to abuse their access, you are not only shooting at a spider with a shotgun, you are missing every pellet. Generally from my time playing security my interactions with crew have been diverse and engaging - this change will and has directly neutered security's ability to both gather information and cooperate with the crew in dealing with antagonists. Yes, security should be the main force in dealing with an antag, but by 60-70 minutes into a shift people will generally want to help, or at least not be a hindrance, to security and their aims, ESPECIALLY if the antagonist is destructive. 
This change moves players from being able to approach people deep in departments and ask "Have you seen someone doing anything suspicious?" to gather information or "Could you give us a hand by doing X/Y/Z." and puts them in the "HEY OPEN THIS DOOR" or just bypassing the members of that department entirely and yelling "AI DOOR", or dragging a cyborg around to force open doors, or BREAKING INTO DEPARTMENTS just to try and chase down an antagonist. Essentially, this change is good for antags escaping from chases, but not for Security having any form of good relation with departments, and not for the ability for Security to do their job.

In addition, from my time playing whilst this has been testmerged, security have been a lot less willing to actually get out and deal with antagonists, because investigating into, giving chase to, and/or getting an antag in a corner is that much harder whilst remaining in their lane and keeping to the standards of the RP servers. This change is resulting in rounds going awry quicker and more catastrophically because Security can't both be effective and capable whilst being forced to either drag a potentially absent HoS everywhere they want to go or yell at a potentially absent AI every time they need to get through a door they used to have access to.

[Kotlol]

If anything this change made Brobocops more useful since they got AA.

[The Panna]

I really don’t like this change
Sylvester already has an issue with antags stomping a crew when there are only one or two officers present and I think this will make this problem worse
And the HoS species is also a rarity on Sylvester too. Captains and AI sightings are also not 100%
I would also like to emphasize that on RP the secoff’s has other expectations than just beating the daylights out of bad people.
(No clue what it’s like on classic)
There is at least some expectation that secoffs will talk to crew, interrogate suspects by asking them to come with them

On a more nitpicky note, this is not a merge of classic and RP access, but more like bringing RP secoffs down to classics level, and classic has just completely different expectations on what security is supposed to do.

[JORJ949]

Id like to point out that security is not just "beat up the antags" on classic, theres more to it than that and sec should still not be just executing every antag.

I would like more pointing out whats ACTUALLY happening differently on rp so I can adjust the changes accordingly, such as the lessened action from security.

On the lessened action I think this is likely down to players assuming they need access to an area to talk to its occupants, places like genetics and robotics can be talked to from their window, additionally there is radio and PDA messenging. On classic at least an officer wanting access to robotics would ask the roboticist or AI to be let in if they need to arrest, if just asking questions they do so from the window. Just because you don't have access doesnt mean you cant go there ever.

[Cropsey]

On classic at least an officer wanting access to robotics would ask the roboticist or AI to be let in if they need to arrest, if just asking questions they do so from the window. Just because you don't have access doesnt mean you cant go there ever.

Multiple people have explained why this isn't always possible, though.

[Lord_earthfire]

Multiple people have explained why this isn't always possible, though.

And that is not bad. Sometimes they can hide in there and you need to get the more drastic measures. Or wait until they strike again.

I would also like to emphasize that on RP the secoff’s has other expectations than just beating the daylights out of bad people.

And we have to stomp some of these expectations into the ground. We had multiple comments that people will complain that sec is not directly there to stop an antag in their department, while doing nothing themselves. And i say let them complain, that's on them.

The expectations on security got quite ridicilous (especially hos, what i see written on the applications at times is unreal). And if people understand "security won't suceed in their job if we don't assist them by simple things like harassing an antag to buy time or opening doors", this will take stress out of their job.

It's kinda the same problem that exists with medbay in It's current form. It's a far too self-sufficient department and thus too much is expected from a doctor. Living up to these expectations alone is very stressfull.

[The Panna]

Officers asking crew to let them into areas they do not have access to will be a very unreliable method to get stuff done, and that unreliabilty will turn inoto inabilty on Sylvester where whole departments could have no staff or just one 

For example, there is a Stue EvilGeneticist and they are the only medbay staff. They just knocked Stew SoontobeDeadChef after they got a genetics scan, luckily Willie the WatchfulJanitor saw this and reported it over the radio. The singular officer, Jacey Spacey runs to genetics but since there is; 
No Captain
No HoS
No HoP 
No MD 
No AI 
No Cyborgs 
They have to either break the window, get tools to get the window screwed off, get an engineer to help (might not even exist) ooorrr ask very nicely for Stue to stop eating Stew’s face/drink their blood/hold them hostage. If Jacey has to take these extra steps to save Stew, it’s very likely Stue has already killed Stew  

TL;DR: Stue made the blunder of being seen but Stew still died due to there being no one who can open the single Genetics door on station except the one killing them 

I just can’t stress enough how poor this change is for RP, especially for lowpop.  I have no idea why classic is having an effect on RP this way  

PS: I never, ever want it to be normalized for secoffs to carry hacking tools on RP

[Lord_earthfire]

So what? Stew is dead. The antag has done what is expected of them. They killed someone.

The guise of the geneticist is up. They wont kill someone again the same way. They need to escalate now.

Now the other scenario. Sec intervenes, captures the antag, the chef is safe. Sec interrogates the geneticist, takes them out for 10+ minutes, including brig time. The geneticists lost the gear and most likely mutations they worked for the first 20 minutes of the round. At the end of round people asks "we had antags?"

The scenario you put up is the best case scenario that could have happened there. The antag got their kill (more important: they are able to RP their kill), they can escalate, sec can react to their next move which most likely happens outside of medbay. And if they hunker down in medbay? Get an engineer with hacking tools.

[LeahTheTech]

on kondaru we are supposed to be able to access science lobby still but for some reason doors that tied to only the lobby can't be accessed.

Oh yep, there was one toxins access spawner on a lobby door for some reason, fixed!

[Carton]

So what? Stew is dead. The antag has done what is expected of them. They killed someone.

The guise of the geneticist is up. They wont kill someone again the same way. They need to escalate now.

Now the other scenario. Sec intervenes, captures the antag, the chef is safe. Sec interrogates the geneticist, takes them out for 10+ minutes, including brig time. The geneticists lost the gear and most likely mutations they worked for the first 20 minutes of the round. At the end of round people asks "we had antags?"

The scenario you put up is the best case scenario that could have happened there. The antag got their kill (more important: they are able to RP their kill), they can escalate, sec can react to their next move which most likely happens outside of medbay. And if they hunker down in medbay? Get an engineer with hacking tools.

Because they can now cripple the station by murdering openly with little to no effort, and there is next to no counterplay by any other player on the server. Which isn't fun for the player being killed, security, or anyone else, and encourages rampaging massacres because you can again, operate openly without security being able to interfere effectively. Lowpop security already had issues with antags using their natural advantage with reduced security to simply kill everyone on board, now it's worse because even if there is security, they can't do anything about it.