I keep noticing things in the debate on both sides that makes me go... Makes sense but I seen opposites happen.
For one.. if security didn't had AA, I would have once been killed as an antagonist by vigilante staffies cause... I was clown bullied inside science who was also a vampire. I just used my antag powers to stun them and stuff into a spot as revenge. Not killing them, just pranking them hard.
AI even came in to saw me to the face.
Security dragged me out and brigged me, but since I haven't commited any murders and just used vamp powers for pranks. It was considered "No reason to kill or keep em brigged"
Yes vigilantism is against the rules.
Infact whenever I play wich is rarely as of late.. I keep seeing extreme cases of vigilantism where when I see it as a security officer, I arrest both parties. And I go: "You can't just go kill someone cause they did a crazy trick."
The reason I bring this up... is because of the "But classic has it like--" being brought up a lot as a strong point. But... that is the worst way of thinking things.
That said... security officer being bored? Staffies are bored too since I seen some extreme vigilantism almost everytime I play.
And while I am okay with security losing access so antags can antag easier. The reason I mention it is because there are too many vigilante/watchful types around like the AI for example or the staffy who is hunting for antags for some reason since they got nothing to do. I don't know why so many people keep going to the throat of antags being obivious antags that want you to engage with em in fun ways that don't involve murder. (And yes I ahelp it)
But this post just shows an argument on both sides and the right way of fixing things is impossible to see. Restricting access may give antags the boost they need to do something in those areas. But removing it.. may end up hurting the culture or even antag play style.
I still think that HoS and Secoff access should be two seperate discussion. Also, rather than cutting down the access all by once to make it similar, it should be focused on cutting down some of RP access that people feel a bit more unnecessary (for example HoS from other heads' quarter and like some suggestion who want secoff to not access detective office) and things like should there be something to do with Classic HoS access. I feel that people will be more positive about slower changes, rather than direct cut down to everything.
Or maybe a testmerge is needed so that player can actually see better of the outcome? Eh.
Though, I do find it weird that classic HoS has less access than RP Officer, while I can understand it.
08-05-2024, 07:46 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2024, 07:47 PM by WhatMG.)
(08-05-2024, 10:12 AM)Silent Majority Wrote: I believe under rp rules it is exclusively secs job to deal with antags by the wording, to prevent antag hunting and such
Please direct me to that statement, i seem to be missing it.
I see the following in the rp rules relating to security.
"As security, your priority is the crew’s safety and maintaining the peace". That's in a section that discusses how escalation is needed before attacking other players, though.
And "Play your character as though they wish to keep their job at Nanotrasen. This includes listening to security and the chain of command and, if you are a member of command, taking your job as a leader seriously in-character", though that's in the "playing a believable character" section.
The closest I can see is keeping the crew safe and maintaining the peace, but that relates more to general security duties that you'd expect.
I really like the idea of changing officer access depending on various scenarios and have multiple ideas on when it would change:
1) When you use your PDA alert
2) Server population
3) Red alert (button in bridge), possibly extended into multiple levels of alert for officer access
Personally I think the best solution is server population as that is the reason the difference existed, possibly with red alert giving them the maximum access at any pop.
(08-05-2024, 10:12 AM)Silent Majority Wrote: I believe under rp rules it is exclusively secs job to deal with antags by the wording, to prevent antag hunting and such
Please direct me to that statement, i seem to be missing it.
I see the following in the rp rules relating to security.
"As security, your priority is the crew’s safety and maintaining the peace". That's in a section that discusses how escalation is needed before attacking other players, though.
And "Play your character as though they wish to keep their job at Nanotrasen. This includes listening to security and the chain of command and, if you are a member of command, taking your job as a leader seriously in-character", though that's in the "playing a believable character" section.
The closest I can see is keeping the crew safe and maintaining the peace, but that relates more to general security duties that you'd expect.
From my understanding, it isn't exactly that security are the only ones allowed to "Deal with antags" as far as fighting them goes, but you should preferably be letting them do it if they're at present on station. You're allowed to defend yourself and others if they aren't there, but you should also be calling security and letting them take over once they arrive.
In essence, its correct that security are the only people who's job it is to fight the antag, but that doesn't mean crew arent allowed to deal with them at all or offer resistance.
This is based off numerous admin statements over the years as well as the stay in your lane rule.
(08-06-2024, 12:16 AM)Carton Wrote: From my understanding, it isn't exactly that security are the only ones allowed to "Deal with antags" as far as fighting them goes, but you should preferably be letting them do it if they're at present on station. You're allowed to defend yourself and others if they aren't there, but you should also be calling security and letting them take over once they arrive.
In essence, its correct that security are the only people who's job it is to fight the antag, but that doesn't mean crew arent allowed to deal with them at all or offer resistance.
This is based off numerous admin statements over the years as well as the stay in your lane rule.
True, you can defend and defend crewmates.
But as my story shows... some just go full murder boner when they see an antag being an antag.
Heck one thing I hate the most (not that I got this myself but in my security rounds/captain rounds) is when 1 injection of LSD from a changeling has some people shouting "Ling" over comms.
Or they see a "flash" from a vampire and go "VAMPIRE!!"
Or they see an arcfiend sucking an APC and go "ARCFIEND!"
Or a traitor walking in their attire but wearing something only a traitor can wear like a football outfit.
It's like... yes you caught em but everytime I hear this I go check it out and pretty much tell someone to not shout that stuff as it causes panics.
Heck in roleplay you are encouraged to be an obivious antagonist that's loud and puts attention on you. But with people always willing to shout loudly and try to start beating on you while you haven't done any harm or used your tools to knock someone out out of your OWN self defense or to be an antagonisting nuisance.
But now I am going majorly off track on this topic about access and it turned more into a "security culture and rules" debate.
So I'd like to call a last post on this debate. And return on full why security needs access or not.
Especially on lowpop, not being able to get into certain places is a pain. Imagine that an antag's stolen the spare, there's no AI and no scientists, and the antagonist is hiding somewhere in science. All that security can do is break in ot wait for somebody with accesd to arrive, and by the time that's done, the antag has already fled somewhere else. I don't see a real need to restrict security access on RP.
08-06-2024, 02:43 AM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2024, 03:00 AM by Lord_earthfire. Edited 7 times in total.)
(08-06-2024, 02:08 AM)Chasu Wrote: Especially on lowpop, not being able to get into certain places is a pain. Imagine that an antag's stolen the spare, there's no AI and no scientists, and the antagonist is hiding somewhere in science. All that security can do is break in ot wait for somebody with accesd to arrive, and by the time that's done, the antag has already fled somewhere else. I don't see a real need to restrict security access on RP.
A scenario such as this would be a positive result of this change.
Because in the alternative, the antag gets chased through science, gets chased further through maints and so forth.The option for the antag (if they are not arcfiend or genetics was kind to them) are mostly fleeing through space/disposals or upping it to a rampage.
These endless chases was something that people hope to stop with this change.
(08-06-2024, 02:08 AM)Chasu Wrote: Especially on lowpop, not being able to get into certain places is a pain. Imagine that an antag's stolen the spare, there's no AI and no scientists, and the antagonist is hiding somewhere in science. All that security can do is break in ot wait for somebody with accesd to arrive, and by the time that's done, the antag has already fled somewhere else. I don't see a real need to restrict security access on RP.
Isn't the problem low pop here ? You should have issues with access if the station has no command staff, no AI and no borgs around. Especially on RP. You are a regular sec officer on a near empty and non functionnal space station in this scenario.
(08-06-2024, 03:26 AM)Decarcassor & Lord_earthfire Wrote: (lots of text which you can read above)
I admit that my point wasn't the strongest, but my opinion still stands. Pretty much everything that can be said about this has already been said (notably that "Hey HoS/AI/Department member, open the door please" isn't really fun interaction), so I think that we should go with a 1-week TM to get real feedback instead of going through one hypothetical scenario after the other.
Personal thoughts:
Mechanical differences between RP/Classic suck. It's not good and it's just sort of something you're supposed to just "read on the wiki" (this applies to many things, but it's a relatively small detail compared to like, botany or engineering) or figure out yourself - People unfamiliar with the differences would probably be under misconceptions. Given we promote the different servers when dead and on the main menu, I think they should be as close to the same as we can make. I do not think there is any other job that has additional access on RP. We list extra access on every wiki page for no reason.
I also do not believe Security needs the access they have now. Cyborgs exist. The AI exists. The HoS (sometimes) exist. Security has hacking tools in their department, door breaching rounds in the armoury and can get other crew members to open the doors for them. There's so many different options to deal with this I doubt it's ever going to be an issue where one person is "pressured" to open doors. It's half the AIs job and on the average round on RP, I find myself getting ordered enough that maybe orders overlap and there's a slight delay like, once or twice per round? Sure the HoS has to actually travel there, but I find this to not matter given there's that many other options to get in. You could also just break windows if it comes down to it, or pick up the chase later.
These changes are definitely worth a try and I'm glad it's now just been Testmerged. I think these changes are ultimately for the best.
08-06-2024, 08:17 AM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2024, 08:36 AM by Kateaclysm.)
(08-06-2024, 06:57 AM)444explorer Wrote: Personal thoughts:
Mechanical differences between RP/Classic suck. It's not good and it's just sort of something you're supposed to just "read on the wiki" (this applies to many things, but it's a relatively small detail compared to like, botany or engineering) or figure out yourself - People unfamiliar with the differences would probably be under misconceptions. Given we promote the different servers when dead and on the main menu, I think they should be as close to the same as we can make. I do not think there is any other job that has additional access on RP. We list extra access on every wiki page for no reason.
I also do not believe Security needs the access they have now. Cyborgs exist. The AI exists. The HoS (sometimes) exist. Security has hacking tools in their department, door breaching rounds in the armoury and can get other crew members to open the doors for them. There's so many different options to deal with this I doubt it's ever going to be an issue where one person is "pressured" to open doors. It's half the AIs job and on the average round on RP, I find myself getting ordered enough that maybe orders overlap and there's a slight delay like, once or twice per round? Sure the HoS has to actually travel there, but I find this to not matter given there's that many other options to get in. You could also just break windows if it comes down to it, or pick up the chase later.
These changes are definitely worth a try and I'm glad it's now just been Testmerged. I think these changes are ultimately for the best.
Are you actually suggesting Security hack doors or break windows to get into places they "shouldn't be"? Because I've ahelped people for that in the past. I don't like the idea of security getting so desperate that they have to break station infrastructure because centcomm couldn't bother to give them access to a department.
Honestly I'm really not a fan of the changes at all, I suspect this will just make the job more frustrating and empower a lot of miserable antag gimmicks.
While this would take more work to implement, I think a few different "crisis levels" that are similar to the red-alert function of the captain's button might be a good solution. Code green being the lowest level of access available, where as code yellow opens up other departments and some miscellaneous areas, and then code red being full-on current RP access. Changing the alert level would give a station-wide announcement, which I think would not only give a natural escalation to security encounters, but also slightly involve the crew and be able to gauge the mood of security as a whole. Being able to gauge the "mood" or "vibes" of security during a round is a good thing because I feel like I've witnessed scenarios several times where an antagonist has tried to mess with sec, or do a more innocent gimmick, but has been immediately jailed or dealt with more harshly than is typically necessary for their deeds because another antagonist has gone completely nuts and Security is too high-strung or busy to give it their attention.
Alert levels wouldn't fix everything, but I feel like it could be a very good way to not only give guidance to newer sec players on what is/isnt okay based on a given alert level, but also give a more natural "we're done messing around" alert to antagonists.
Quote:"This PR is unlikely to get fully merged as-is, but since this topic keeps coming up and being argued about we should at least try it out and see what needs to be changed to make it work. Tying security access to population thresholds or alert levels are definitely possible solutions to the issues of low-pop and crises requiring the extra access if that appears to be necessary."
This was Leah's comment on the actual PR itself and I would just like to give some input on Security/Pop Access from other servers.
On low pop rounds on some TG based servers (I'm not sure if this is all), other jobs have access to locations based on the population, such as the chef, bartender and botanists all kind of have equal access (maint, bar, kitchen, botany, ranch ig in our case) to cover those jobs if they're out, I think that could be something we could consider to kind of deal with the "security do-everything" role.
Also I think crisis levels changing access would be incredibly fun, I know TG has their green -> blue -> orange (engineering) -> amber -> violet (medical) -> red -> delta, I think having something like that would get the button in the bridge more use, because right now all I ever see it as is the button the clown smashes and not much else.
(08-06-2024, 08:17 AM)Kateaclysm Wrote: Are you actually suggesting Security hack doors or break windows to get into places they "shouldn't be"? Because I've ahelped people for that in the past. I don't like the idea of security getting so desperate that they have to break station infrastructure because centcomm couldn't bother to give them access to a department.
I'm suggesting they use the tools avaliable to them if it gets bad - You're given breaching hammers and charges in the Armoury, and the tools are there for a reason. If things are bad enough where things would be that miserable and everyone who could open the door is just gone, then what's the issue? I'd rather bust open doors and break windows if it meant catching someone running about with a gun or an alien murdering people. Shrug.
Goonhub
