Unify Classic and RP Sec accesses

[LeahTheTech]

Yeah what Petey said, no harm in trying it out and seeing how it goes (this is me hoping JORJ will make the PR and I can just testmerge it :P)

[Glamurio]

I'm confused about this proposed change, it seems the reasoning given is primarily "I don't like that they are different and I would prefer if they weren't." rather than giving an actual reason as to why it's necessary.

I can't recall any egregious instances of RP-Sec access abuse in recent history that would warrant this. If there was an outbreak of rookie officers waltzing into departments looking for evildoers I'd understand it, but primarily the way trouble gets handled on RP is that people specifically call in crimes via radio or PDA, and then Security will arrive on scene. Most of the time that's mid-crime and then being locked out of a chase because you don't have access is a massive hindrance. Besides that, SecOffs spend the majority of their round chilling in the office or talking to people in hallways.

Like people mentioned, RP behaves significantly different than classic when it comes to handling antags. On Classic, it's not uncommon to do a "shoot first, ask questions later" approach, while on RP you sometimes have lengthy interrogation sessions that last longer than the actual prison time. On Classic, people will just radio "AI Law 2 open door", while on RP people are going to be a lot more wordy when asking for access, and by that time the antag got away. Not to mention that I personally dislike forcing the AI to be even more of a glorified door opener than it already is.

I also can't remember the last time an antagonist was executed for being a nuisance unless there was a lot going on and someone had to die to make it manageable, but that's biased on personal experiences.

[Retrino]

how many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man... as a few have already said, i really dont see how this will benefit the rp servers at all. access is a very powerful tool that many antags (or nonantags) often take advantage of in various ways in a round. be that getting into secure areas, stealing, altering records, etc, and they have many ways of getting to that access.

security does have a large portion of station access, but the station isnt the only place an antag can run off to. speaking from experience as someone who is mainly on rp, there are a Lot of traitors that utilize the listening outpost, and by extent, space. its not something security is particularly equipped to handle, they dont have their own space suits and they cant get into the outpost. nor can they easily track down an antag thats moved off station level. on top of that, a decent disguise (hell even a well placed shrub) is enough to make an entire security team run past you. antags arent missing out on prime criminal activity just because security can open the door to robotics.

to make a quick point about the potential harm, it isnt nonexistent. the ai is being brought up a lot in this thread for good reason, theyre going to be the main one being given orders to get into areas, second to maybe the captain or hos. security obviously runs into a lot of time sensitive situations, and an ai that isnt prompt in their response time (or maybe didnt see the request) could bear the brunt of a lot of frustration. while i dont think its fair to pin blame on another player for a mechanic of the game, frustration at an avoidable situation because you couldnt open an area of the station in time could end up directed at the perceived cause of it.

this does exist already with command areas, yes. sometimes youll see a couple of secoffs standing at the bridge airlocks patting them, waiting to be let in. a big difference here being command and ai upload are pretty confined areas, and command is typically prompt in helping out since its something actively affecting them. classic security has areas like *robotics* or *engineering* that they cant get into. doubling the amount of "ai door" or seeking out someone whos likely busy doing their job to not only let you in, but stick around to make sure you can get out, is not really enhancing the experience of anyone involved

[JORJ949]

 classic security has areas like *robotics* or *engineering* that they cant get into

Very against officers having robotics, that lets them unlock borgs, they should have to beat borgs and not just carry screwdrivers to flash>ID>screwdriver>remove brain

[Shiiba]

 classic security has areas like *robotics* or *engineering* that they cant get into

Very against officers having robotics, that lets them unlock borgs, they should have to beat borgs and not just carry screwdrivers to flash>ID>screwdriver>remove brain

I'm gonna be honest, as an RP HoS, I don't think I've ever actually ever seen an officer remove a brain from a Borg that wasn't previously followed by shooting/beating them to death.

[Petey]

In all the time I've played across servers 3 and 4 combined, I've seen more borgs beaten than I have people use the method above you described. Whether or not it's quicker is really minimal, both yield the same results.

[Lord_earthfire]

security does have a large portion of station access, but the station isnt the only place an antag can run off to. speaking from experience as someone who is mainly on rp, there are a Lot of traitors that utilize the listening outpost, and by extent, space.

I think you are describing a problem here. Because of far too excessive sec access, antags are pressured to do their shenanigans outside the station, at a place where they are unable to interact with crew .

[Emimiyu]

 classic security has areas like *robotics* or *engineering* that they cant get into

Very against officers having robotics, that lets them unlock borgs, they should have to beat borgs and not just carry screwdrivers to flash>ID>screwdriver>remove brain

Imo, this is maybe a bad idea and out of the scope of this discussion, but I feel like cyborgs interface should have different access than "robotics area" access.

Like, some attempt of cutting down secoff access on RP that have a good reception are removal of the medbay locker, cargo computer, and APC. Remove the ability for security officer to do someone else job but still allow them to walk into some areas. I still think if you want to cutdown secoff access on RP, you may want to do it slowly.

[JORJ949]

Imo, this is maybe a bad idea and out of the scope of this discussion, but I feel like cyborgs interface should have different access than "robotics area" access.

I agree with you, and I see anyone on classic with a flash and robotics access debrain rather than beat so assumed it was the same on RP, that was my mistake

[Soleil]

Huge fan of this, SecOffs have way too much all access on RP. Yes it's going to suck and need adjusting to but I am hopeful it leads to a better balance. I've often seen Security have an attentive AI or even Brobocops on their team on RP, which would more or less give them full AA in situations where they need it. IMO we could make a compromise though. What if hitting the red alert button gives Security their old pseudo AA back while its on? Adds more importance to it, lets crew know something is going on like the Armory alert. If you truly are in a situation where antags are running wild on station, hit the red alert. If you simply need to investigate or chase one guy, the AI or a Brobocop is good enough. This PR would also make Brobocops way more valuable in general which I love.

[Glamurio]

Genuinely believe that this is going to cause more issues than it solves just for the sake of parity.

[OutbackCatgirl]

Possible compromise: Have some form of server population based secoff access system. Based on number of users on the server (not necessarily readied up) at roundstart, pick one of perhaps three sec access profiles - extended access on lowpop, slightly restricted regular access on medpop, and classic level access on highpop.

It probably isn't a good idea in the end but if this is possible at all it could be worth trialling at some point.

[Lefinch]

I'd say the fact this has come up before, and both sides seem to have a point on it that maybe there's a problem here to resolve but that this particular method might not be the one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming the issue here is one of two things in a normal game flow:

*John Badguy does a thing, maybe it's in a public hallway, maybe it's in their department. Maybe the AI spots them or someone does a security crisis alert.
*Security gets into the area en masse too quick for that person to escape, or John tries to escape into an area but is chased too effectively.

fixed by/causes problems

*John badguy again, doing that thing you know how it is
*Security tries to get into an area but is halted by door access, and the time required asking the AI to open doors, or get permission to enter, or teleport in or something else is time John badguy has to escape.

Is that the general idea here? Because if it is I'd say the common theme is more "Give john badguy more effective escape options." I also say it because a door not working is something that happens a lot in the course of the round, and what tends to happen in my experience is that the AI gets yelled at, or engineering gets yelled at, or someone has a crowbar on hand so on. That already sort of happens and, again entirely anecdotally to me (so I don't want to suggest that this might not be a valid problem, if people keep bringing it up it probably is in some way!) it doesn't tend to result in people in post-round OOC going: Oh man when the doors didn't work was my favourite part of my/your escape.

Maybe we need some sneakier ways to effect a bit of an escape? Arcfiend has wire hopping Lings have the old shapeshift, vampires are little bat imps. Wizards are literal houdinis Traitors have some camoflague options, maybe spending some expensive points on tools to get escape options (I know picking an emag card means I'm also likely to be picking up the hand teleporter) but maybe some kind of low-cost limited use (because running around the entire round isn't fun either and the other skills have some limitations, wirehopping is energy intensive and can be snipped, vampires need stamina, a ling's disguise can be worked out through social deduction and clues etc) "Escape button" item? a brief phasing/blink one-use item, some kind of DIY limited-use teleport beacon like the salvager's magpie teleporter or something else?

I don't really mind either way personally with the idea of giving or restricting security access, but I appreciate that putting the ability of increasing that access (that's likely to be highly wanted) in the hands of the HoS probably means they're going to be spending more of their round time doing that, being asked for that, or having to deny that when maybe instead we can circumvent the problem entirely by just making "Slipping away" slightly easier for traitors?

[Wander]

I'd say the fact this has come up before, and both sides seem to have a point on it that maybe there's a problem here to resolve but that this particular method might not be the one.

Yeah, this is personally what I think. There definitely is a problem with chase times being too long sometimes when sec access meets an antag who’s ability does not allow them to get out of an area fast enough to shake off sec; however, the solution to this is not to nerf their access. Making doors the primary obstacle would just get really tiring for all involved since once sec gets that access back via getting an access upgrade from command or whatever method they use in round we go right back to the same old issue. The real issue here revolves around how current antag escape abilities are balanced. Ideally whatever solution is made is one that makes it so antags can end chases and leave their pursuers wondering “Where did they go?” not “I know where they went but there’s 50 doors I have to beg to be let through or get AA to go back to the old also frustrating status quo.”

[WhatMG]

This is a change I'd like to see, but it's largely because I've felt that security on RP has had far too much access.