i think it's time to try player caps.

[Lord_earthfire]

I'm open to the idea of population caps but I think:
- 65 is too low
- It should only count players in game otherwise people are going to idle on the title screen to "save their spot" and we're going to have 50% idlers/observers taking up the cap
- Classic should either remain uncapped or have a much higher cap as it works a lot better at high (even 100+) populations

Yeah, i share this fully. I wouldn't consider 35 - 45 an ideal number, the player coumt i enjoy the most hovers around 50 - 60. ~35 players is the area where low player interaction departments (rancher, botany, science, genetics) or gimmicks are regulary ignored.

So, i would say its worth a try, but i would suggest the number to 80 and only count player thst are actually in game/observing.

[Kotlol]

After reading everything... I am suprised we didn't tackle alterantives.

So 65 pop cap on RP, not bad. So 130 total on both servers.

Okay okay... so if we want more people (even if unlikely) want to join? They are SoL.

So I would suggest the numbers of only active players like Lord_earthfire and the rest can observe/critters.
But now we got 100+ players on a server next round start.... so now we gotta have players who will be denied when the round starts.

Okay what if we get special critters that aren't ghost critters or ghost drones? Or the cap can be bypassed by cyborgs?
Cause the cap will make cyborg spawning impossible if it hit the limit.

But if we do something ike this... we might not get the migration we want to other servers.

Yes I been thinking it through... I will say this right now. This is the HARDEST thing to implement correctly and it will piss off high pop players REGARDLESS


So what do I recommend? A new critter type. Not like the ghost critter. Maybe space spider (who can't drain fluids and eggs do not spawn babies) but it's neutral and it's only goal is "SURVIVE" (Aka you can't attack players unless attacked) Can't talk unless to other critters. Basically everything critter, but with more HP and able to interact with more (cept devices). But your extra goal is to eat food to survive and heal.
I got 3 suggestions for it too on how it spawns and behaves.

1: Off station/Diner.
Welcome to the harsh wilderness, you have to somehow in space. Maybe a passerby will come, maybe you will find a way to a place with more food or maybe you will die horribly.
To me this is the worst suggestion, but also the most least impactful, it would make these "critters" spawn somewhere off station where they cannot disrupt RP and have their own RP.

2: Spawn events just like antag critters.
Essentially put, you roll in to be a "Special critter" and will be put in a "zone" to get to grips with your new form. This is a waiting room till you are allowed to spawn into the game. When it's time.. portal opens and boom, you come onto the station in a bulk with a small alert of: "Influx of creatures appeared on the station."
Since you are a "NEUTRAL" critter, you can't just cause issues.

3: Pets, cause why not?
Wouldn't it be funny if the iconic pets and creatures on the station would become players?
The reason I am saying this is because.. even RP 90% of the time they just sit in the offices doing not much. But I see so many times people turning into cats, birds, dogs and more.
Why not just make the pets the "Neutral" charaters that have to survive? Though I think Heisenbee will be rushed to be taken over by a player....

Of course the 4th suggestion is "Just spawn em in on the station in random rooms" but these are suggestions I think would help too.

The idea of this is to have 65-70 "active" crewmembers doing their jobs in RP. And not to make anyone outside those numbers just... spawn in as critters and ghostdrones or just observing or rushing to take a dead player's spot.
Oh right how do we fix the dead player debacle?

The thing about caps is how do we make it respectfully. I am fine with a Player Cap, but my problem is how do we execute it so players don't start fighting over slots.
There are so much UNDERLYING issues to fix 1st before we even TEST MERGE IT!

Like... people who log off or afk? How do we treat those? See a player who has SSD? Will a slot open up until someone pushes them into cryo and they lose their spot?
this will just cause locker afking.

This is my biggest conern... wich is why I added the "Neutral Critter" system idea to not make more systems to accomendate for AFKing/cryoing/dead players spots being open but "the cap is still in effect." Or "everyone is rushing to spawn into the round as the dead player's slot before they get cloned."
This problem will remain regardless... but my suggestion is atleast a bandaid idea for now.

This what i think the discussion has lacked so far.
So admins/devs while can we also have some clarification on how we will implement "Dead player spots/afking/cryoing?"

[klushy225]

I think the best way to tackle the pop disparity between goon 3 and 4(I don't play classic so I don't really understand the situation there) is to more heavily push 4. An example of this working was last night when Stephanie just told people to go to 4, so it would be less chaotic. Afterward, the pop went from over 100 on three to down near 70, with a healthy 35 on goon 4. This shows that people are willing to switch over, they need assurance that someone is headed over with them. I feel like instituting population caps is just a band-aid fix that doesn't address many of the underlying issues that cause the pop distribution issue. I think a more refined method of encouraging people to make the switch is needed, such as a big 'ol splash text in the pre-round / late join screen, and perhaps some other measures that I'm too tired to brainstorm at the moment.

[TDHooligan]

i saw the same 'move over' and watched but mostly just saw people logging off rather than moving. i think they were just done for the night

[Sov]

Hard pass from me

My observation has always been that caps stifle growth, reduce overall pops, and encourage waiting out of game trying to get in rather than settling for the lower population servers

[Kotlol]

My observation has always been that caps stifle growth, reduce overall pops, and encourage waiting out of game trying to get in rather settling for the lower population servers

Same for me technically , while my earlier post supports the idea but just adding it as is is wrong..

But I want to add one reason why I don't switch servers a lot.

"the charaters I setup, have to be resetup in the new servers and I don't have my spacebux."
These hurdles make me annoyed joining the other servers.
It's not a huge problem.. but it does take time away from playing and annoyances.

[JOELED]

"the charaters I setup, have to be resetup in the new servers and I don't have my spacebux."
These hurdles make me annoyed joining the other servers.
It's not a huge problem.. but it does take time away from playing and annoyances.

Spacebux carries across all goon servers, and the "cloud saves" tab of character setup allows you to save character profiles to load on either of the other two servers.

[Meggal Bozale]

I think it's worth trying since I haven't seen it attempted in my time here, but I also don't really think it's going to work.

I'm one of those people who would easily wait for the server I want to play on to be low enough in pop to join. Quite simply, I have two concerns when I want to hop on. I want enough players for a potential antagonist round to feel meaningful, and I want to RP/noRP as I feel like doing so. The difference in mental effort I need to put in is noticeable on the RP servers, but if classic was 9pop and roleplay capped at 65, I would just find something else to do. Perhaps I am just special in the way I handle that decision, but I really doubt others wouldn't do the same.

The antag thing is definitely just me though, I just want to roll wraith on a high enough pop roundstart to enjoy it. It's been years and I haven't rolled it.

[KikiMofo]

I don't see any reason for Classic to ever be capped because Chaos is the name of the game in Classic. More people = More Chaos = More fun for Kiki.

As far as people trying to "game the system" when it comes to RP caps like sleeping in lockers or holding spots type stuff. Just make it a rule that they are not allowed to do that. If they are breaking the rules just to do this metagame bullshit then are they really people you wanna play with?

[Zamujasa]

To people who are hardline against this, I ask: what is your alternative, then?

Because there absolutely is an ongoing problem with high population making RP difficult. If we're going to be looking at 100+ population rounds soon it is going to be a nightmare.

"Caps reduce population", yes, but that is to some degree the point; the level of population is not conductive to the server's purpose.


The exact implementation details of a cap can be decided later, like how to handle redirecting players to another server, that sort of thing. But especially with tomato happening soon, this is going to become a much larger problem than I think anyone really expects.

[klushy225]

I don't see any reason for Classic to ever be capped because Chaos is the name of the game in Classic. More people = More Chaos = More fun for Kiki.

As far as people trying to "game the system" when it comes to RP caps like sleeping in lockers or holding spots type stuff. Just make it a rule that they are not allowed to do that. If they are breaking the rules just to do this metagame bullshit then are they really people you wanna play with?

mmm, I disagree with that last point. Sometimes you just gotta go for a second, and you don't have time to run all the way to Cryo. People have to go afk during extremely unfortunate times, and if you're just chilling, standing completely still in the hallway, and the atmosphere goes out, you're probably screwed. I agree, that people should use cryo, but real life comes first, and when you gotta go you gotta go.

[Kotlol]

To people who are hardline against this, I ask: what is your alternative, then?

Because there absolutely is an ongoing problem with high population making RP difficult. If we're going to be looking at 100+ population rounds soon it is going to be a nightmare.

"Caps reduce population", yes, but that is to some degree the point; the level of population is not conductive to the server's purpose.


The exact implementation details of a cap can be decided later, like how to handle redirecting players to another server, that sort of thing. But especially with tomato happening soon, this is going to become a much larger problem than I think anyone really expects.

There are many other ways to get people to spread out.

I already gave one suggestion but let's expand it to a few other ideas.

"Station cap"
Once the station is capped (so no infinite staffies), no one can join into the station to do a job.

So where do we dump the next players? Well they could be space diner patrons. And they can go to the station but will have no ID and we know how well that goes.
The idea is that Space Diner Patrons will get an uplink to the station to order things or ask for things.
No radio, no ID. Only an uplink terminal.

Of course on one station the diner is located right below the station and is veeeeeerrry small. But eh who cares.

"CentComm'd"
I know admins do not like shifts in cent comm as an idea... but.. hear me out.
Same as the station Cap one. Anyone spawning after the cap is hit will spawn in a "Section" of Centcomm, waiting to be send off to a station.
These players will basically be stuck in location till centcomm deems it nessarcy to send them to the current shift.

Have this section of centcomm have some small rooms to do things in and then let the players there have their own RP till they are hired. Now the chaos of 100 players is split between 70 on station and 30 on Centcomm.

"Cyborgs only allowed"
Simply put.. station cap is reached, only cyborgs can spawn. Now robotcists can decide the flow of extra players.

"The crew beyond the veil"
I know we don't like dead players giving away info and such and that REMAINS. But now dead / players who couldn't get in. Might be able to do lil things on the station if they join forces as ghosts. For example:
"Zoldorf or a player becoming Zoldorf" can use ghost players to peer around, collect power and effect the round as a "hive mind of ghosts"
They will have limited interaction, but it would be more fun if like 10+ ghosts all combine efforts to do 1 task and make it happen.
What tasks you may ask? I do not know.. this is just a rough idea.

The whole point of this player cap is to make em move to Goon 4, but.. in my opinion.. No one likes to see: "Due to a cap limit you will not be allowed to roleplay this round." 
You gotta give them a bone saying: "You can stick around and do minimal interaction, but it's better to hop servers"
It's why ghost critters exist... so let's just expand on it...or change things.

This can be especially annoying if you wanna play with friends and they are doing a round in goon 3 and then you get to see: "YEA NO BUB"
Have a way for these friends to sorta interact with eachother without it becoming chaos and a mess.

[Waffleloffle]

been a long time coming, honestly. with the fast-approaching Tomato Tide Twenty-24 it seems like it'll be a necessity in order to make roleplaying anything beyond Bits possible at all. my main concern really is whether this will apply to all rp servers, and if so, what to do when both are at their cap other than to just Wait. we could open Rocko for public play, but what if it fills up too? and so on and so forth

hopefully this will also end up getting a lot of new blood to classic, too. I can see it being really nice for shifting the culture there away from a lot of the ruts that I see people expressing distaste with

[Zamujasa]

I already gave one suggestion but let's expand it to a few other ideas.

your suggestions all have the same problem, though.

the problem: high player counts make it harder to RP.

"Station cap"
Once the station is capped (so no infinite staffies), no one can join into the station to do a job.

So where do we dump the next players? Well they could be space diner patrons. And they can go to the station but will have no ID and we know how well that goes.
The idea is that Space Diner Patrons will get an uplink to the station to order things or ask for things.
No radio, no ID. Only an uplink terminal.

this is just a staff assistant under a different name, except now they don't even have basic access. if the problem is poor RP, dumping a load of "here's a bunch of people with no role, no access, dumped in the middle of nowhere" isn't... going to help RP be better.

"CentComm'd"
I know admins do not like shifts in cent comm as an idea... but.. hear me out.
Same as the station Cap one. Anyone spawning after the cap is hit will spawn in a "Section" of Centcomm, waiting to be send off to a station.
These players will basically be stuck in location till centcomm deems it nessarcy to send them to the current shift.

"you are stuck in an area where you can't do anything until an admin intervenes" is a DOA idea; you may as well replace it with "afterlife bar", which already exists

"Cyborgs only allowed"
Simply put.. station cap is reached, only cyborgs can spawn. Now robotcists can decide the flow of extra players.

again, the problem is "too many players to RP well", and this is literally "more players, just different"

"The crew beyond the veil"
I know we don't like dead players giving away info and such and that REMAINS. But now dead / players who couldn't get in. Might be able to do lil things on the station if they join forces as ghosts.

this is just halloween, and again, this doesn't make for better roleplay

The whole point of this player cap is to make em move to Goon 4

the point of the cap is that too many players on one server make proper roleplay increasingly difficult, up to nearly impossible, not to get players to move. the problem isn't not enough on 4, it's too many on 3.

No one likes to see: "Due to a cap limit you will not be allowed to roleplay this round." 

and it isn't fun to be in a round that's already over-full of players, where you don't have any opportunity to roleplay.

all of your suggestions are "you don't get to play the game, either, but you can not play it in this little secluded area for other people who aren't allowed to play", when those people would be better served getting redirected to a server where they can play for real.

This can be especially annoying if you wanna play with friends and they are doing a round in goon 3 and then you get to see: "YEA NO BUB"
Have a way for these friends to sorta interact with eachother without it becoming chaos and a mess.

and that's unfortunate, but sometimes it happens. sometimes you wanna play a game with your buddies in tf2 and the game's full.

because the alternative is like playing a 64-player match of TF2: yeah, sure, you technically can, but it's not really TF2 at that point, it's glorified team deathmatch.

[JOELED]

Zamu put it very well, but I want to support what she said: I don't think adding more arbitrary off-station roles or revamping entire departmental structures or maps is at all the answer here. Those are things that would take ages to do and would likely not accomplish anything even if someone spent the dozens or hundreds of hours it would take to make and then moderate them. The tomato thing is starting, like, TOMORROW. Pop was already higher yesterday than it is normally on a monday evening. A player cap is a feasible reasonable idea that other servers have used to fix the same problem that's being described here. It's worth a shot, IMO -- if it turns out to be as much of a disaster as some people are foretelling, then it can always be turned off again. Nothing is ever fully set in stone.