[MERGED PR] Purgatives and dialysis machine rebalance

[Ikea]

For thoughts on how I think the purgative changes could work. The changes to chemicals that only purge select chems seem like changing numbers for the sake of changing numbers. Dont really see the point of changing those in general, no one finds milk, or halo, etc, too strong. Hunchback changes also seem eh, Id rather nerf it by increasing the damage it deals to +10 tox instead of decreasing depletion rate that way it has the niche of high risk high reward purgative (also probably increase the depletion rate to 1 just to make making pills for it easier). Pent and charcoal changes seem generally fine I dont have any objections there. I think for calomel a good option would be to decrease the base rate of depletion for 3, but make it additionally purge neurotoxin with 2, that way classic ling balance isnt effected, but rp ling and poison mixes in general are.

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I don't think it's a Classic/RP thing; for my part, at least, I only had Classic in mind when I wrote my advocation of shifting the focus on ling countering being self-sufficient stuff vs. making it more reliant on other people. And I do think that the nerfs to purgatives would make the game more interesting, not less, for the reasons described in my first post here.

RP you can get backup for changelings, a lot of the times on classic you cant no matter how hard you try because people are dead or unresponsive. Making purgatives less effective wont change this because that wont make people use comms. Also my comment for interesting is referring to the current applications of smelling salt and calomel when it comes to ling, making smelling salts the objectively better in every way option when it comes to ling is pretty boring.

[saccharineChampion]

What I usually see in Classic is moreso that people don't rather than can't, get backup. A lot of people running off and still just doing their own thing by themselves or recklessly going through maints and other less-public places.
If things were to stay as there are after this change, I would agree more with you. But I see this as a step towards a more social Classic; and that the change, itself, will ideally affect peoples' behavior towards something I believe would be better for the game and its enjoyment overall. Essentially I disagree with the ideal that it "wont make people use comms" - if not from this particular change, then from other changes in this vein of which this is a part.

Apologies for misunderstanding the bit about interestingness. I did not intend to misconstrue what you said; more to the point, I do agree that it is unfortunate that some of the dynamism in that case (which I agree exists and is a good thing) is lost, but I think I have a different conclusion - that it is either a loss worth the gains from the change, or that it would be good to reduce smelling salts a bit as well, keeping calomel better.

[Ikea]

What I usually see in Classic is moreso that people don't rather than can't, get backup. A lot of people running off and still just doing their own thing by themselves or recklessly going through maints and other less-public places.

I dont think this change is effective at promoting sec socialization. I think its unfair to expect secoffs to group up by default, because that sucks for both secoffs and the antags, and if you have a good changeling a lot of the times you dont realize you have a changeling until its too late and half of sec is dead. I think changes making radio more readable and stuff like that would be far more effective when it comes to promoting sec socialization. Also I think promoting socialization on classic is a good goal, but Id rather not do that goal by buffing one of the strongest rampage antags.

[Lord_earthfire]

Why should smelling salts have the same effect as calomel? I like the current dichotomy smelling salts have of a chemical that is harm free and easy to get, but using it will probably have you knocked out anyways, while calomel is a chemical that is harder to get and damaging, but you probably wont get knocked out. It makes ling encounters interesting and dynamic. I think balance changes should make the game more interesting, not less. I think a big part of this discussion is the divide between RP and Classic balance when it comes to changeling and I do have a comment Im typing out that should be more constructive in what to do here

Smelling salt are the narcotic counter. It should be equally strong or stronger than most other purger for the thing they are supposed to purge.

It's not an RP against classic thing. Calomel/hunchback values are so arbritrary high that they dont leave much design space. And smelling salts are a perfect example why that's a problem.

Personaly, i would be even more fine with buffing smelling salts against ling stings than buffing calomel.

[crunchwarp]

I don't feel strongly about the other nerfs but calomel is definitely too good. Getting a syringe full roundstart is often enough to completely cure three different poisoned patients. How much time/effort/TC did those three poisonings cost the traitor?

Mass poisonings are one of the most fun things that can happen when you're playing doctor. If this leads to more poisonings I'm for it!!

[Ikea]

Why should smelling salts have the same effect as calomel? I like the current dichotomy smelling salts have of a chemical that is harm free and easy to get, but using it will probably have you knocked out anyways, while calomel is a chemical that is harder to get and damaging, but you probably wont get knocked out. It makes ling encounters interesting and dynamic. I think balance changes should make the game more interesting, not less. I think a big part of this discussion is the divide between RP and Classic balance when it comes to changeling and I do have a comment Im typing out that should be more constructive in what to do here

Smelling salt are the narcotic counter. It should be equally strong or stronger than any other purger for the thing they are supposed to purge.

It's not an RP against classic thing. Calomel/hunchback values are so arbritrary high that they dont leave much design space.

I would rather see smelling salts at 4-5u per tick if purge than calomel for the thing they are supposed to counter.

Calomel is also the changeling counter? Like, multiple things can and should have overlapping roles with different strengths and weaknesses that's a good sign of strong balance, theres no need for having **the** counter when multiple counters tend to be far more fun and cool. Also I think calomel already has pretty good design space? (Purgative that deals lots of damage). It may need some tweaks but overall the design niche it fills is nice. I think hunchbacks is pretty weak currently because its just a straight upgrade to calomel in every way, but increasing the damage drastically making it into a sort of super bootleg calomel (and also maybe add some fun chems it generates as byproducts) I think would be a pretty strong design space for it.

[saccharineChampion]

I dont think this change is effective at promoting sec socialization. I think its unfair to expect secoffs to group up by default, because that sucks for both secoffs and the antags, and if you have a good changeling a lot of the times you dont realize you have a changeling until its too late and half of sec is dead. I think changes making radio more readable and stuff like that would be far more effective when it comes to promoting sec socialization.  Also I think promoting socialization on classic is a good goal, but Id rather not do that goal by buffing one of the strongest rampage antags.

While sec grouping up easily sucks, that wasn't what I meant to get at with socialising - what I meant moreso was intermingling with crew, talking to people more - as well as at-the-moment callouts. In my experience, some of the best times as sec have been where, even if I die, people notice enough to get suspicious that something bad happened, because I had been doing a bit of hanging-out and talking to others earlier.
I also don't intend at all to just be promoting sec socialisation, but socialisation across the board. I'm glad we agree on it being a good goal, even if we disagree on this being a good way to approach it; I definitely support other changes to that end like radio readability being easier, as you mention.
Going to step away and work on some other stuff and mull over this PR and your points, so don't expect any further response, but I would like to thank you for making the points you have made.

[Ikea]

I dont think this change is effective at promoting sec socialization. I think its unfair to expect secoffs to group up by default, because that sucks for both secoffs and the antags, and if you have a good changeling a lot of the times you dont realize you have a changeling until its too late and half of sec is dead. I think changes making radio more readable and stuff like that would be far more effective when it comes to promoting sec socialization.  Also I think promoting socialization on classic is a good goal, but Id rather not do that goal by buffing one of the strongest rampage antags.

but I would like to thank you for making the points you have made.

Hey no problem, it was a good convo and its definitely changed my pov from purgative changes bad to some purgative changes good.

[Lord_earthfire]

Calomel is also the changeling counter? Like, multiple things can and should have overlapping roles with different strengths and weaknesses that's a good sign of strong balance, theres no need for having **the** counter when multiple counters tend to be far more fun and cool. Also I think calomel already has pretty good design space? (Purgative that deals lots of damage). It may need some tweaks but overall the design niche it fills is nice. I think hunchbacks is pretty weak currently because its just a straight upgrade to calomel in every way, but increasing the damage drastically making it into a sort of super bootleg calomel (and also maybe add some fun chems it generates as byproducts) I think would be a pretty strong design space for it.

I think we need to differentiate between specific counter you bring to a special occasion and a general counter that you can carry around even when that special occasion does not come up. Smelling salts is the first while calomel is the second.

I think that if a general counter is stronger than a specific one, that general counter should have enough downsides that highly discourage the use of it or be much rarer in rarity. I personally think both do not apply to calomel.

A damage amount that hardcaps at 20% health, in my opinion, does not qualify as a sufficient drawback. Since neither calomel nor hunchback does apply any stuns, you can pop them in a fight encounter and still continue to fight or run away. And, when we talk about poisonings in general, the cap of 20% health means that the flushed poison won't leave you in crit. The only downside is limited fighting capability due to being in near-crit and slowdown. This is not even much of a problem, since the 0.8u/tick depletion rate means you can very fast go and begin healing yourself.

I don't think the low disadvantages calomel have warrant it being stronger than a specific purger, like smelling salts. Or dedicated medbay equipment, like the dialysis machine. Personally i would even say that does not apply to hunchback as well, but it having a 0.4 decay rate and thus a longer time until it leaves the body is enough of a downside so i give it more a sliver of doubt. By the way, Hunchback got a 60% higher purging rate than calomel and with the nerf of this PR it will still be better than what calomel currently is.

[Ikea]

Calomel is also the changeling counter? Like, multiple things can and should have overlapping roles with different strengths and weaknesses that's a good sign of strong balance, theres no need for having **the** counter when multiple counters tend to be far more fun and cool. Also I think calomel already has pretty good design space? (Purgative that deals lots of damage). It may need some tweaks but overall the design niche it fills is nice. I think hunchbacks is pretty weak currently because its just a straight upgrade to calomel in every way, but increasing the damage drastically making it into a sort of super bootleg calomel (and also maybe add some fun chems it generates as byproducts) I think would be a pretty strong design space for it.

The only downside is limited fighting capability due to being in near-crit and slowdown. This is not even much of a problem, since the 0.8u/tick depletion rate means you can very fast go and begin healing yourself.

Uhh, being in near crit and heavily slowed down next to a ling is an incredibly large downside especially if the ling is like, mildly aggressive. Like, if youre a ling you should at the very least, have a fire extingusher or something else to deal damage and pay attention to your victim in case they run away. Good luck getting away from a ling on 20 hp whose out for blood and mildly aware. Also thinking of things in terms of general/specific counters is just a boring way to think about the game, counters shouldnt be ranked they should be situational. Smelling salts has a niche as is with current balance because its incredibly easy to get your hands on with the vending nanomed,. Calomel being overall stronger, is fine because calomel you have to raid medbay/a chemdispenser to get, while smelling salts you just need 100 credits. (Not opposed to making calomel recipe harder).

Also personally I think hunchback being higher purging rate and far less purging per healing then calomel is a bad thing. Id like it to be made more damaging that way it stands out more

[Lord_earthfire]

Uhh, being in near crit and heavily slowed down next to a ling is an incredibly large downside especially if the ling is like, mildly aggressive. Like, if youre a ling you should at the very least, have a fire extingusher or something else to deal damage and pay attention to your victim in case they run away. Good luck getting away from a ling on 20 hp whose out for blood and mildly aware. Also thinking of things in terms of general/specific counters is just a boring way to think about the game, counters shouldnt be ranked they should be situational. Smelling salts has a niche as is with current balance because its incredibly easy to get your hands on with the vending nanomed,. Calomel being overall stronger, is fine because calomel you have to raid medbay/a chemdispenser to get, while smelling salts you just need 100 credits. (Not opposed to making calomel recipe harder).

Also personally I think hunchback being higher purging rate and far less purging per healing then calomel is a bad thing. Id like it to be made more damaging that way it stands out more.

I see where you are coming from, but i also think that bringing calomel to a 1v1 against a ling should maybe not be a valid strategy. I can fully understand utilizing it when you go in with multiple people and prepare for an abomination, where others can fight it while you crawl your way back to patch up and engage again. Or when you know there is a ling and you can call in people to help you. Then you can go paralyzed for a few seconds as well until the rest is purged out, because the rest will help you.

I think seperating between specific and general counters should not be the only measure, but being a general counter is a major upside we should not underestimate. You can carry around a calomel autoinjector or syringe in general. Calomel helps against sleepypens, chemsmoke, ling stings, the MONSTER eating contest. And smelling salts does only help against one of them. This means in general you are more likely to carry around a calomel autoinjector and only get the smelling salt when you really, really need it against a ling or someone drugging with tranquilizers.

A general counter is, by design, not situational. Except when sufficient downsides makes it situational.

I think we disagree on whenever the damage of calomel does to the user makes it situational enough.

But besides that, this whole discussion is kinda turning into a ling discussion without actually talking about if we should just nerf the neurotoxin sting of the ling which is.... weird i guess?

[Ikea]

I see where you are coming from, but i also think that bringing calomel to a 1v1 against a ling should maybe not be a valid strategy. 

I think seperating between specific and general counters should not be the only measure, but being a general counter is a major upside we should not underestimate. 

But besides that, this whole discussion is kinda turning about a ling discussion without actually talking about if we should just nerf the neurotoxin sting of the ling which is.... weird i guess?

Calomel for 1v1 is already a weak strategy against a ling on virtue of it being a 1v1 against a ling, but I think it giving you a slim chance of winning is good. I think ling 1v1s not being a blatant win is a good thing, lings have several things that make them very good at getting into and winning 1v1s (easy to have element of surprise, general robustness, etc.), having calomel be a thing that can slightly level out a very uneven playing field is great. These changes mean that youre going to be knocked out basically every single time which means you have practically no chance at winning a 1v1 even with calomel which I dislike, 

Chances are if its a ling round (which is the reason a person will have calomel on them 95% of the time, youre not going to encounter any other source of poisons. It being a general counter to purgatives isnt really a big upside unless you rush calomel every single round (which only like 2 people do). In the cases most people go out of the way to get calomel for, it being a general counter doesnt matter. 

I think ling in general while not in a terrible state, and could be reworked to make them a lot more fun, but that's a larger thing outside the scope of this pr. I think that encounters should aim to be as two sided as possible (even if one side is very very slanted) and changeling encounters can be a bit too one sided (especially when it comes to roleplay).

[Decarcassor]

I'm surprised this turned into a calomel discussion and pentetic acid is barely mentionned.

On RP, purgatives don't exist because medbay is full of pent 5 minutes into the shift. Poisonings are never lethal because pent solve everything. Its the strongest purgative around, works on everything and barely has any downside. And considering how fast medbay get tubs of the stuff its clearly too easy to make.

My two cents would be that the dialysis machine should be the universal thing that purge everything, but not very fast, while chemical flushers should have more marked downsides and things they interact poorly with.

[MorganFreeman]

Like the buff to the machine but strongly against purger chem nerf. I dont think we need the purgers nerfed as they are bad as they are

[DummySian]

some people mentioned having calomel and other purgatives being powergaming but cant you just rush antitoxin gene with portagene... I feel like people totally wont be encouraged to communicate with eachother or 'stop powergaming ' or whatever the goal is
Also if you calomel yourself while fighting a ling you will literally die its gives you almost crit amounts of tox from only couple units and all it takes is couple extinguisher hits
I dont really care about pentacid nerf or dialysis machine buff tho