Emagging organs with tools

[CalliopeSoups]

Discussed earlier in the discord, I think a thread is a good place for the topic.

I think something needs to be done about emag-less emagged cyber organs. It's always been used be one or two people at a time but I think particularly recently they're becoming a commonly used thing to the point of being many people's roundstart rituals. My issues with it specifically is emagged cyber organs are noticably powerful for the effort you have to put in to get them. You need a fabricator, a room to yourself and a couple of tools really. This plus the fact you need to go through surgery to get them results in groups of insanely powerful nonantags, as they do surgery on each other. I believe it's noticably powerful enough to distinguish itself as a bit unfair compared to other powerful and common tactics like lube. There's definitely normal non-antag things that approach the same power or reach it, like how botany can produce a lot of heals easily, I'd just argue hitting organs with a screwdriver for 15 minutes in a quiet room is a bit dull compared to other things.

As for what could be done, I think there's several angles to look at it from. You could make the process of cyber organ surgery more complex than fleshy organs, though that wouldn't solve the grouping problem and maybe encourage it due to more surgeons potentially being around and wanting some too. You could directly rebalance cyber organs and their emag effects somewhat, though I don't know enough about them to suggest specific numbers. In the same vein there could be more downsides for the stronger organs to work around, like how you need to be aware of brain damage with meth. You could also just remove emagging organs without a real emag completely, I'm not sure if that would be the popular option but it'd be mine.

Insight/discussion from people who know more about cyber organ stuff would be appreciated.

[Lord_earthfire]

If they sit for 15 minutes in a room beating organs and doing surgery, i don't really see a problem? In the same time a scientist or engineer could have made a bunch of TTV's.  We're talking about part of robotocist "endgame", really.

I mean if we want to make it slower, maybe make non-emag emag organs roll a chance to fail after ~5 minutes. So you can use them  but will require more upkeep to.keep them working.

If we remove it, we should maybe look at a replacement for traitor robotocists. The emag is really expensive, and locking another traitor option of them behind it would narrow the options for them down. And many traitor shenanigans for robotocist are locked behind the emag. Maybe a 1 TC option that only works on cyberorgans?

Personally, i would look at cyberorgans for doctors in general. I simply don't think medical doctors should have access to cyberlimbs and most not-common-failing organs. Let them have livers and pancreas and lock the rest behind robotocist.

[Frolicsome Flufficorn]

Manually emagging cyber organs is far to easy. Recently ive seen it be done constantly and in terms of stun res and to some degree the healing, having full Emagged cyber organs literally is just infinite stims, which for a traitor is fine. But even just having a emagged cyber pancreas means you get a HUGE stamina buff that just makes dealing with you as a antagonist impossible. Its being powergamed almost every round by people. Items such as the trophy belt, light engineering suit, toxin skinpen mixes, sorium, magboots. While they are all Horrible and annoying to deal with they atleast all have basic counters (tho the toxin skinpen mixes are actually quite OP but thats off topic) whereas a antag whos going against someone with emagged cyber organs would have to get the EMP rifle from armoury in order to get them or have such strong lethals that they instant die, because stuns aint gonna work.

Also in terms of reducing a roboticists ability to play. Idk I dont play RP, but on classic roboticist traitors almost exclusively go robotic conversion chamber, and people who get full emagged cyber organs are usually just random people, not roboticists. I dont even see the emagged cyber organs as a medical thing, since its usually random people who arent in the medical department who get it.

also HELL NO! 1 TC item to emag cyber organs. HAHAHHA, I would pay 12 TC for emagged cyber organs. You know how absolutely insane they are? as I said earlier literally infinite stims, even a EMP on them doesnt instantly kill them. On top of that if you just carry bojacks on you constantly you literally have infinite omnizine. so you can heal your organ damage (and other damage) very quickly. Chems dont even work on you because you can instant purge them. You cant be stunned because of how high your stamina and stam regen and stun res is. You heal naturally extremely quick anyway. and on top of that if we give them cyber limbs, they can break cuffs so not even a quick cuff can beat then. Its CRAZY how broken full Emagged cyber organs are. As ill say at the end, I do like the idea of a traitor item explicitly for emagged cyber organs, but I feel like emagged cyber organs are in a spot right now where they are in alot of ways just better stims. I would say I would like it to be a 6 TC item but I have a feeling people would somehow suggest that prices is to high.

Overall, I dont mind Emagged cyber organs for traitors despite me stating how OP they are since it takes ages to put through and requires someone to help you for the heart (Which if done by someone inexperienced can just kill you). but as a non antag gaming 1 or 2 of them every round in order to gain significant stamina buffs to make dealing with you by a antagonist is just a bit to OP for my liking.

in a Ideal world, emag shouldnt upgrade things, it should downgrade them. Then give the medical department a new traitor item that just upgrades them in the same way the EMAG does now. I find it weird how the EMAG which is being used to disrupt systems is MASSIVELY upgrading these organs. so emagging cyber organs should do sabotaging stuff, like releasing toxin or something or slowly killing them, or giving them heart attacks etc. Like in every other use of the EMAG it breaks locks, overrides systems. not giving organs random buffs, like how can Emagging a cyber liver make it produce omnizine? why would that be something that it doesnt have in the first place, why would we need to break or bypass a system for that to be used?

[Lord_earthfire]

Manually emagging cyber organs is far to easy. Recently ive seen it be done constantly and in terms of stun res and to some degree the healing, having full Emagged cyber organs literally is just infinite stims, which for a traitor is fine.

Like you said, for traitors its fine. Thats why i say explicitely 1 TC, just lock it behind traitors. It removes non-antags out of the equation. When we compare it to stims (and i think they are weaker than stimulants with robotic limbs), we can bump it to 3, at most.

Keep in mind, stims give the effect directly without preparation. For emagged cyberorgans, you need another person for the surgery and need a good chunk if time.

Add new sprites to the emagged cyberorgans (like the enagged hypospray), so people directly see you are a traitor when you want to be implanted one, and you suddenly need a mindhack as well for an emagged cyberheart.

[Kotlol]

Emags are one of the most powerful items traitors can get.... so this change I am not sure.

Maybe emagging ALLOWS you to tamper with it?

[Snowy :D]

I never liked the method of emagging cyber organs w/o an emag card.

Perhaps they can instead be crafted at the fabricator for a much heftier cost in materials.

[George_Manning]

Emags are one of the most powerful items traitors can get.... so this change I am not sure.

Maybe emagging ALLOWS you to tamper with it?

Nono this isn't about organs that you emag with an ACTUAL emag, it's about organs that you hit with tools until they enter the "emagged" state.

[Mouse]

IIRC when this was added the intention was for emagged organs to be a high risk/reward situation, which obviously isn't the case at the moment.  Giving tool-emagged organs additional drawbacks would be one way of dealing with the issue if, for some reason, you actually wanted to keep a thoroughly nonsensical mechanic.