Arcfiend Hit & Run Tactics Should be Punished More. Here's Some Ideas!

[Wrench-1]

So a common strategy for Arcfiend is to zip around to APC to APC using Wireride, drain the APC of its power, and then go to the next. Maybe cutting it short if you hear someone coming like Security. The common counter play to this is to destroy wires to limit their movements, but this can lead to causing more destruction and station damage than otherwise necessary, especially on RP where said damage is somewhat expected to be fixed eventually. A lot of Sec players I speak to, including myself, always voice their frustration with Arcfiend rounds because they will ALWAYS start as or devolve into this long drawn out Hit & Run/Tom & Jerry chase sequence that can last WAY too long, simply because Arcfiend is not punished enough for playing in this way. And this is not fun for Security, and not fun for Arcfiend either due to how stale this strategy can get.

I've thought up a few ideas that could be used to balance Arcfiend and punish this method of play a bit more and HOPEFULLY make the Antag feel more fun to play against, and more engaging to play as so they've got a few more things to worry about, and not just result to riding from APC to APC draining power.

• Reduce the speed an Arcfiend moves through a wire by about 30% - 50%
  
• When an Arcfiend emerges from a wire, disable their abilities and add a disorient debuff for a few seconds. (Lets say their bodies need time to get used to becoming physical again. Include some Brute damage for good measure)
  
• Increase the charge used as an Arcfiend moves through a wire, and increase the charge used when an Arcfiend remains still inside a wire to prevent long drawn out instances of wire camping.
  
• When an Arcfiend is in a wire that gets snipped, when they emerge they take Brute damage, have their abilities disabled and are disoriented for a few seconds. (Longer than emerging normally, and more brute damage too)
  
• Have a small chance (that could perhaps increase based on max energy) that a Floortile that the Arcfiend moves under through a wire is dislodged and flies off due to the excess energy coursing through the wire. This allows for Arcfiends to be tracked fairly easier, and punishes Arcfiends that go around at Max Energy STILL sapping APCs. Draws Arcfiends into the open more, and allows for more combat encounters.
  

If anyone else has any ideas, or reworks or arguments to the ideas I suggested, feel free to share! I really want Arcfiend to be in a better spot than where they are currently, and for them to be received a lot better overall.

[Kotlol]

We have debated this before Wrench. And I think the best way of fixing it is "Disable abillities" for doing so.
But I do like your damage and disorient... since this is similiar of a vampire spamming their "Remove bad statuses" over and over.

So I don't see why they can't take a lil bit of damage.

[Glamurio]

So a common strategy for Arcfiend is to zip around to APC to APC using Wireride, drain the APC of its power, and then go to the next. Maybe cutting it short if you hear someone coming like Security. The common counter play to this is to destroy wires to limit their movements, but this can lead to causing more destruction and station damage than otherwise necessary, especially on RP where said damage is somewhat expected to be fixed eventually. A lot of Sec players I speak to, including myself, always voice their frustration with Arcfiend rounds because they will ALWAYS start as or devolve into this long drawn out Hit & Run/Tom & Jerry chase sequence that can last WAY too long, simply because Arcfiend is not punished enough for playing in this way. And this is not fun for Security, and not fun for Arcfiend either due to how stale this strategy can get.

I've thought up a few ideas that could be used to balance Arcfiend and punish this method of play a bit more and HOPEFULLY make the Antag feel more fun to play against, and more engaging to play as so they've got a few more things to worry about, and not just result to riding from APC to APC draining power.

• Reduce the speed an Arcfiend moves through a wire by about 30% - 50%
  
• When an Arcfiend emerges from a wire, disable their abilities and add a disorient debuff for a few seconds. (Lets say their bodies need time to get used to becoming physical again. Include some Brute damage for good measure)
  
• Increase the charge used as an Arcfiend moves through a wire, and increase the charge used when an Arcfiend remains still inside a wire to prevent long drawn out instances of wire camping.
  
• When an Arcfiend is in a wire that gets snipped, when they emerge they take Brute damage, have their abilities disabled and are disoriented for a few seconds. (Longer than emerging normally, and more brute damage too)
  
• Have a small chance (that could perhaps increase based on max energy) that a Floortile that the Arcfiend moves under through a wire is dislodged and flies off due to the excess energy coursing through the wire. This allows for Arcfiends to be tracked fairly easier, and punishes Arcfiends that go around at Max Energy STILL sapping APCs. Draws Arcfiends into the open more, and allows for more combat encounters.
  

If anyone else has any ideas, or reworks or arguments to the ideas I suggested, feel free to share! I really want Arcfiend to be in a better spot than where they are currently, and for them to be received a lot better overall.

Just the other day we've had a thread discussing how arcfiend right now is the weakest antag, meaning that a thread like this actually if anything proves to me that arcfiends are in a relatively good place on a power level. I don't think they need to get nerfed, if anything some people may argue they need a buff (as mentioned in the other thread). There, it was also mentioned that, if anything, arcfiends don't touch APCs enough, because APC draining is a very risky, very obvious strategy. It's far safer to go to external SMES units or other electronics to drain because they do not leave obvious marks.

Dealing with an arcfiend is really straightforward, you cut the wires, all of a sudden they can't get to where they want, eventually they will run out of juice and need to re-emerge, which is where they turn into a regular antag like any other. I would very much dislike seeing their most fun and least harmful ability increase in cost.

[TDHooligan]

Dealing with an arcfiend is really straightforward, you cut the wires, all of a sudden they can't get to where they want, eventually they will run out of juice and need to re-emerge, which is where they turn into a regular antag like any other. I would very much dislike seeing their most fun and least harmful ability increase in cost.

You say this, but ultimately it stumps a lot of officers who are more restrained on annihilating station infrastructure (a key point being manta, where power lines make huge loops of the station you have to cut everywhere, behind access-locked doors.)

Arcfiends aren't helpless versus these strategies either. Wires are easy to lay, doors can be broken and locked down... I've seen one fiend essentially turn each APC room they drain into a tiny stronghold, breaking the doors and sneaking out at the first sign of a failed entry.  I've personally HoSed over at least half a dozen security teams made miserable by moderately capable arcfiends. Not like "this is annoying" demoralised, I mean like 'stuff this, i'm going to go sit in Sec and RP while the arcfiends do whatever' demoralised. Teams of 4-5 officers. versus a single skilled Arcfiend.

I don't think it's healthy that the status quo on RP has morphed to 'kill them ASAP', either. On RP, most antags are given leeway to do gimmicks, push funny ideas. Almost every experienced officer I see is willing to give more than an inch to other antags to 'spice up a round', but basically all of those same officers revoke that privilege for Arcfiends. 

Perhaps arcfiend is not the strongest antagonist in raw power, but that's not the issue. They only need to kill like 1-2 dudes to functionally force Sec into a tedious manhunt. I rarely see security enjoying these hunts and oftentimes they will just silently ignore Arcfiends (which I don't blame them for)

Similar thread, there's a lot of similar issues with different solutions.
https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=21026

[Lord_earthfire]

You say this, but ultimately it stumps a lot of officers who are more restrained on annihilating station infrastructure (a key point being manta, where power lines make huge loops of the station you have to cut everywhere, behind access-locked doors.)

I will say it this way, if you try to fight a capable and evading arcfiend without getting engineering in there, thats on you. They hate these wirehopping apc-suckers more than everyone else. and will gladly rip out wires to give them what they deserve.

In general, security should involve the station more.

Having that said, this is not something you should directly nerf since wirehopping is extremly important to disengage.

How about this:

make wirehopping arcfiends visible on the t-ray scanner.

[Snowy :D]

You say this, but ultimately it stumps a lot of officers who are more restrained on annihilating station infrastructure (a key point being manta, where power lines make huge loops of the station you have to cut everywhere, behind access-locked doors.)

I will say it this way, if you try to fight a capable and evading arcfiend without getting engineering in there, thats on you. They hate these wirehopping apc-suckers more than everyone else. and will gladly rip out wires to give them what they deserve.

In general, security should involve the station more.

Having that said, this is not something you should directly nerf  since wirehopping is extremly important to disengage.

How about this:

make wirehopping arcfiends visible on the t-ray scanner.

Aren’t arcfiends already visible while wire hopping? They leave small sparks above the tiles they are moving through.

[Lord_earthfire]

Aren’t arcfiends already visible while wire hopping? They leave small sparks above the tiles they are moving through.

very occasionally only. When you see the sparks most often they are gone again. Having the lightning ball be visible on a T-ray scanner would be a much more clear indicator to hunt them properly

[Kotlol]

You say this, but ultimately it stumps a lot of officers who are more restrained on annihilating station infrastructure (a key point being manta, where power lines make huge loops of the station you have to cut everywhere, behind access-locked doors.)

I will say it this way, if you try to fight a capable and evading arcfiend without getting engineering in there, thats on you. They hate these wirehopping apc-suckers more than everyone else. and will gladly rip out wires to give them what they deserve.

In general, security should involve the station more.

Having that said, this is not something you should directly nerf  since wirehopping is extremly important to disengage.

How about this:

make wirehopping arcfiends visible on the t-ray scanner.

Engineers are either busy building stuff, engine maintaining or fixing things. Most of them do not and will not hunt an arcfiend.

THAT SAID. T-Ray thing is briliant!
But I still think we need to make wire hopping less profitable and work on more fun ways of arcfiends interacting. We even suggested stuff like: "Arcfiends can take over silicon bodies and pretend to be a silicon for a limited amount of time"

[Lord_earthfire]

Engineers are either busy building stuff, engine maintaining or fixing things. Most of them do not and will not hunt an arcfiend.

To be honest i would say you got 1 working the engine, maybe 1 doing repairs besides running a mechcomp project and the rest doing mechcomp projects or drinking at the bar. There are enough engineers that would gladly jump on a arcfiend hunt, especially the ones doing repairs.

[Arlian]

Aren’t arcfiends already visible while wire hopping? They leave small sparks above the tiles they are moving through.

very occasionally only. When you see the sparks most often they are gone again. Having the lightning ball be visible on a T-ray scanner would be a much more clear indicator to hunt them properly

I really like that idea, and it would make sense that you could see them in a wire when your T-ray scanner is activated.

Would also be really useful for when an arcfiend dies inside a wire and they simply stay there forever (not sure if this was fixed), leaving you unable to borg them or do anything with their body.

[Glamurio]

Aren’t arcfiends already visible while wire hopping? They leave small sparks above the tiles they are moving through.

very occasionally only. When you see the sparks most often they are gone again. Having the lightning ball be visible on a T-ray scanner would be a much more clear indicator to hunt them properly

Have to agree with everyone, the T-Ray idea could be a really neat solution that doesn't remove the mechanic, but makes tracking and wire-camping more manageable.

I'd say this change, combined with "if you cut the wire the arcfiend is on, they get stunned and brute damaged", would clearly alleviate the frustrations people are having without removing power from the arcfiend per sé.

[Silent Majority]

the problem with arcfiends is wire hoping is ludicrously cheap, especially if they just sit still. It has a roughly 2 second start up and once in nothing can drag them out.

this leads to arcfiends being difficult to aprehend, track, see, or interact with.

this leads to some who just teleport around moving 100000 mph for efectively free destroying things while security has to keep moving around with the arc prolly have sec coms anyway

this leads to sec not bothering to chase.

[Brixx79]

It would be interesting if some things generated a 'pull' for the arcfiend. Passing by something like that normally wouldn't do much to annoy the arcfiend but would allow mechanics to set up 'church-esque' areas that could trap them in there if they get too close and try to stay in the wires.