"The Stun META discussion Thread"

[Cheffie]

Personally I think cause stun allows to escalate the scenerio in fun ways, but some say is because lethals take a long while and take a lot of ammo to permanently take out someone.

Personally I also love being on the floor for 30 seconds plus, unable to move. The reason stuns are perfered is because stunning, cuff and crushing/cremating/spacing is way faster and consistent to kill than using lethals because goon spaceman can survive -200% crit for ages if they get good RNG rolls (Cardiac, Organs, Death, ect) and any meds can save them. This is specially a problem with fighting security with donuts.

[Mouse]

Taking damage should cut stun durations.

[NanoDano]

Taking damage should cut stun duration

I like this idea a lot, I cant think of any balance issues off the top of my head, but this would, while not solve, help with some of the issues with antags getting secoff gear

[TDHooligan]

yeah it would definitely make fights a lot crazier and make stun weapons into actual stun tools rather than murder-precursors, but probably make lethal firearms more terrible. id be down to try it regardless

[Kotlol]

I seen this suggestion before (though this is not a suggestion topic, but a discussion based one and gathering data on how Stun actually works and what we coudl change)

And I like it defintally. Infact it makes sense that punching someone causes their flight or fight response to increase... aka ADRENALINE.
So by stunning then beating someone up.. they will get up faster.

Basicly it's the vampire "Recovery" abillity where the take x amount of brute damage to cure themselves of any bad status, but in the form of removing stun because someone else is punching you.

So code wise I like, mechanic wise i like it, real life like I like.

Still does anyone know where we can find all the stats on how stun works and how some armor can lower it's effect? It's litterly the thing we need to the most in this topic.

[Lord_earthfire]

Well for some numbers, if  i got anything wrong correctio s are well appreciated:

A stun baton, activated, got a stamina drain of 130. With a stamina regen of 10/s, this leaves a ~6 second window for two hits to connect to drive someone standing still/walking onto the ground. Even more time if they try to run or fight. And running us not an option due to desorient.

With meth, we look at around 65 stamina damage with a regen of 13 stamine/s. Which means 4 hits needed on a standing target. But in practice with movements and attacks, we talk about 3 hits. Synap+Epi are slightly weaker but compareable with 78 baton stamina damage.

Of course there are more potent stamina mixes. Nukies with syndie meth+synap reduce stun baton damage to laughable 26. The same can be achieved with powergamed stamina mixes.

Th striken through information information is FALSE. Sorry, mixed stun_resist and desorient_protection

A csaber gets you into crit with 2 hits, but to actually make you unable to fight back we are talking about around 3-4. A Katana makes you unable to fight back with 2-3 hits. You are still able to run away, though.

From my opinion, stun batons got a better TTK than traitor weaponry against unprepared crew and security that get jumped on and cannot eat their robust donuts.

[Kotlol]

Well for some numbers, if  i got anything wrong correctio s are well appreciated:

A stun baton, activated, got a stamina drain of 130. With a stamina regen of 10/s, this leaves a ~6 second window for two hits to connect to drive someone standing still/walking onto the ground. Even more time if they try to run or fight. And running us not an option due to desorient.

With meth, we look at around 65 stamina damage with a regen of 13 stamine/s. Which means 4 hits needed on a standing target. But in practice with movements and attacks, we talk about 3 hits. Synap+Epi are slightly weaker but compareable with 78 baton stamina damage.

Of course there are more potent stamina mixes. Nukies with syndie meth+synap reduce stun baton damage to laughable 26. The same can be achieved with powergamed stamina mixes.

A csaber gets you into crit with 2 hits, but to actually make you unable to fight back we are talking about around 3-4. A Katana makes you unable to fight back with 2-3 hits. You are still able to run away, though.

From my opinion, stun batons got a better TTK than traitir weaponry against unprepared crew and security that get jumped on and cannot eat their robust donuts.

THIS IS WHAT WE NEEDED EARLY ON IN THIS TOPIC! (Thus I will add it to the Opening post)

Still I would like to know some armor absorptions since sometimes I get the message: "Your armor softens the blow" when it comes to Tazer and Stun Rounds (Det revolver).
Does it effect Batons too?
Also how much Stamina damage does a flash do?

Once we get each "Stun weapon" number. I think we can finally compare every detail we need to know how "impactful" stun is and why.

[Cheffie]

THIS IS WHAT WE NEEDED EARLY ON IN THIS TOPIC! (Thus I will add it to the Opening post)

Still I would like to know some armor absorptions since sometimes I get the message: "Your armor softens the blow" when it comes to Tazer and Stun Rounds (Det revolver).
Does it effect Batons too?
Also how much Stamina damage does a flash do?

Once we get each "Stun weapon" number. I think we can finally compare every detail we need to know how "impactful" stun is and why.

The softens the blow message is just because of how projectiles work and doesn't actually change the stam damage, only body disorienate resist affects stam damage taken.
Heres the normal weapons stam damage pointblank, how many shots they get on that mode (with a 200pu cell) and how many shots to down:
Baton does 130 stam damage (8 hits, 2 hits to down)
Taser does 80 normal (8 shots, 3 shots to down), 240 burst (2 shots, 1 shot to down)
Taser shotgun does 200 normal (8 shots, 1 shot to down), 110 slug (6 shots, 2 shots to down)
Taser SMG does 42.5 automatic (25 shots, 6~7 shots to down), 144 burst (5 shots, 2 shots to down)
Dets rounds are the same as normal taser shots.
Wavegun not compared here because its gimmick is being better further away so a pointblank test won't be fair.

[Kotlol]

The softens the blow message is just because of how projectiles work and doesn't actually change the stam damage, only body disorienate resist affects stam damage taken.
Heres the normal weapons stam damage pointblank, how many shots they get on that mode (with a 200pu cell) and how many shots to down:
Baton does 130 stam damage (8 hits, 2 hits to down)
Taser does 80 normal (8 shots, 3 shots to down), 240 burst (2 shots, 1 shot to down)
Taser shotgun does 200 normal (8 shots, 1 shot to down), 110 slug (6 shots, 2 shots to down)
Taser SMG does 42.5 automatic (25 shots, 6~7 shots to down), 144 burst (5 shots, 2 shots to down)
Dets rounds are the same as normal taser shots.
Wavegun not compared here because its gimmick is being better further away so a pointblank test won't be fair.

Excellent excellent. This stuff helps clear so much about how stuning works and that there is no wearable armor to weaken it.
I guess that is something to add to the list to maybe add. Some sort of clothing/vest you can make to lower stun's effect.

[Cheffie]

There are clothes that lower the effect but they all give you slowdown as well. examples: firesuits 15% 0.6 slowdown, heavy suits 25% 1.5 slowdown, heavy armour 45% 1.5 slowdown, bomb suits 10% 0.45 slowdown, ect.
However all the clothes options are trumped by the barrier with 65% 0.3 slowdown which is default security gear adding to their strength...

The convention with resisting stuns is generally physical things give disorientate resistance (stam damage) and chemicals give actual stun resistance (which hardly matters unless you can break cuffs or you have massive stun resistance)

[Lord_earthfire]

THIS IS WHAT WE NEEDED EARLY ON IN THIS TOPIC! (Thus I will add it to the Opening post)

Still I would like to know some armor absorptions since sometimes I get the message: "Your armor softens the blow" when it comes to Tazer and Stun Rounds (Det revolver).
Does it effect Batons too?
Also how much Stamina damage does a flash do?

Once we get each "Stun weapon" number. I think we can finally compare every detail we need to know how "impactful" stun is and why.

The softens the blow message is just because of how projectiles work and doesn't actually change the stam damage, only body disorienate resist affects stam damage taken.
Heres the normal weapons stam damage pointblank, how many shots they get on that mode (with a 200pu cell) and how many shots to down:
Baton does 130 stam damage (8 hits, 2 hits to down)
Taser does 80 normal (8 shots, 3 shots to down), 240 burst (2 shots, 1 shot to down)
Taser shotgun does 200 normal (8 shots, 1 shot to down), 110 slug (6 shots, 2 shots to down)
Taser SMG does 42.5 automatic (25 shots, 6~7 shots to down), 144 burst (5 shots, 2 shots to down)
Dets rounds are the same as normal taser shots.
Wavegun not compared here because its gimmick is being better further away so a pointblank test won't be fair.

Jep, my information about stam mixes was blatantly false, like i found out. Sorry for that, i mixed stun_resist with desorient_resist. Stim chems actually don't affect the stamina redcution AT ALL. They just affect the time you are stunned and until you get up. And the stamina regen, which is for most chemicals too small to help against most stuns.

And well, once on the ground...

[Kotlol]

Thanks for the update Lord_earthfire.
Missinformation removed and updated.

This begs the question... if there is no way to reduce stunning's effects to any degree. It makes you want to take it for yourself.
Bullets and weapons can be countered played by armor, mutations and more.
Where as Stun has NO counterplay. You get stunned and only can get up faster, but once down. You might just get 4-6 more baton hits onto you and then get cuffed.
Then you gotta break your cuffs instantly, grapple free and hope you don't get stunned again.

I do think devs are right that stun needs to be a menance so antags won't try to solo security. But it is causing this meta.
Having some sort of counterplay to it that's not "get up faster" but "resist against initial stuns and stam damage" will already help alot.

I always THOUGHT chems helped against Stamina damage and some clothing RESISTS stam damage. But it turns out.. nope.. and if this is 100% confirmed.. that's kinda a bad thing.

[Lord_earthfire]

Bullets and weapons can be countered played by armor, mutations and more.
Where as Stun has NO counterplay. You get stunned and only can get up faster, but once down. You might just get 4-6 more baton hits onto you and then get cuffed.
Then you gotta break your cuffs instantly, grapple free and hope you don't get stunned again.

There are mutations that help against stuns. Actually quite well. Empowered SMES human grants 40% desorient resist (normal SMES human doesn't) and Physical Fit grants a bonus 20/40 to maximum stamina for normal/empowered.

But empowered genes are the exception due to stability concerns

[Cheffie]

Id argue that extra stam hardly changes anything, most "BIG" stam bonuses are like 40-50 think werewolves, event wrestler spawns. But that boost really only adds 1-2 more taser shots or one more baton hit to completely go down which in the big picture on its own makes hardly any difference.
Since realistically you will never be at full stam and in those cases security or anyone else with the stuns has the advantage of forcing you to run reducing your stam making hitting a stun much easier.

[Lord_earthfire]

One baton hit is really a huge difference already to get away.

But let's step away from the specifics and collect the information:

-Sec stun weapons have a faster TTK than traitor gear
-Sec has a number advantage
-stamina gets depleted by attacks/moving, thus making you loose effective hitpoints against stamina damage when going on the offensive
-Armor that poses stamina damage resistance comes so with slowdown, making it morle likely you get hit.
-Chem mixes don't offer resistance against stamina damage

What this creates:

-Most engagements devolve in chases (don't get hit, lol)
-Most antags need special abilities to somewhat resist stuns
-Sec weaponry is very often sought after by antags
-Antags need to powergame hard to compete with security
-Powergaming is highly frowned upon when security does it

Do i got anything wrong there?