The Inevitable Mindhack Discussion Thread

[Jackary]

Alright.

What are your thoughts on Mindhacks? How can they be changed? Are they fair or no?

I've always hated em. The shitty excuse Admins and Devs give all the time of giving new players a chance feels bullshit because it's only ever used by experienced players, but I'd like to see you guys's thoughts.

[babayetu83]

i like them because it offers people a chance to participate in something they otherwise might get to

[TDHooligan]

no issue. it's not like you can properly co-operate with someone without them.

[Kotlol]

Let's discuss the pro's and con's of Mindhacking.

Let's start with the cons:
- Player is forced to obey another player, thus ruining whatever they were doing.
- If antag tells you to kill yourself, you gotta do it.
- Depending on security, you might end up being killed while you were "Technically" innocent.
- There isn't much time to react to being mind hacked.

Pros:
- You get to be an antagonist as well this round.
- You can do ANYTHING nessarcy to accomplish your task (well gameplay wise)
- Traitor antagonist gets a partner in crime, thus having a team of antags insted of a singluar one.

So what do I think?
I think it's a perfect tool for fun and chaos. All it does is "add another antagonist" to the pile.
I'd say the EMAG card is waaaaaaaaay worst then 1 mind hack deluxe. Mind hacks are players that can be cured with a simple removal, it works for just 1 player and more.
EMAGs break doors, rogue borgs, makes vending machines into machine guns, turns beepskies/bucketbots/firebots/tilebots/miningbots into menances.

I think it's annoying when it happens to you in the middle of you doing something fun, but when you aren't doing anything. It's like: "Ah yes I get to do something more chaotic" Or if you are a captain/hop: "NOW ITS TIME FOR EEEEVIIILLLL"

Ironicly I been mindhacked MORE when I was an antagonist already. Heck one shift I was a traitor, another traitor mindhacked me and then when I was doing their bidding, another traitor came in and mind hacked me over the mind hack. That was awkward..

So no.. mind hacking is completely fine as it is. The only issue I have with it is when the timing is wrong and you lose what you invested in for the shift.
Wich I am NOT surprised the OP had.
Probably an engineer doing an own project then a traitor mindhacked them and now they had to give up on their fun project when they finally rolled engineer.
That kinda timing will make anyone sour.

[RelentlessGarbage]

Were it not for the meta of mindhacking Security Officers, which causes a significant amount of nigh-unavoidable spacing and death when it happens, I'd say mindhacks are ok. I've only been mindhacked once, and maybe I just lucked out with who did it to me, but it was pretty chill - just a few cryostylane+capsaicin floods and other tomfoolery. It also gives people who never voluntarily play as antags a chance to experience that side of the game (read: me).

That said, mindhacked security officers really are the pits. Security is meant to have powerful tools to stop rampagers, and turning those tools on regular crewmembers doesn't give much recourse for the targets, besides opting to leave the station entirely. It really leaves the HoS as the only person you can really trust as a non-antag crewmember, and that's IF they're still alive and at all competent at a given point in the round.

Point is, I like mindhacks in all scenarios where they aren't given to security officers. They allow for some cool gimmicks and add more (non-overpowered) antags to the round. Sadly, on classic, sec officers tend to get mindhacked, and so (like TTV bombs) I don't find them particularly enjoyable on the whole. And, to your point, mindhacking extremely robust people can make things pretty hellish - just hope that those robust folks have enough gamesense to keep from getting mindhacked in the first place!

[Lord_earthfire]

Mindhacks are fine. Honestly, i would like if there would be other ways to convert people as well, most importantly with more effort. Like the mindhack cloning module, which requires some real effort to set up. Stuff like that is awesome.

the thing is, there are many gimmicks that require two or more people to work. Staging a revolution/heist, building something that takes too long for one person. All the things that make a good conspirator round awesome, essentially. And giving traitors the option to give up TC to go for some more elaborate gimmick is great.

While i see the issue with mindhacking security on classic, i think this comes from the particular strenght of security stuns combined with the lacking options for non-antags (this includes the other security officers themselves) to resist them. This is exactly the same issue as an antag who gets their hand on a stun baton. Changing something about mindhack implants won't change these kind of issues.

[Kotlol]

While i see the issue with mindhacking security on classic, i think this comes from the particular strenght of security stuns combined with the lacking options for non-antags (this includes the other security officers themselves) to resist them. This is exactly the same issue as an antag who gets their hand on a stun baton. Changing something about mindhack implants won't change these kind of issues.

There are ways for crew/antags and sec to be more "resistant" to stun, not immune.

Drugs, cyborg enhancements and more.
They don't OUTRIGHT block it or undo it like the vampire "bad status removal"
But they make you take more stun hits, to mostly ignore the stunning, to geting up MUCH faster.
It's smaller edges, but if you can take em to catch security off guard and plan a massive escape. You will be much better.

THAT SAID:
I do agree with this statement that stuns are a "way to go"
If you don't mindhack security... you will kill them and steal their stuff.
The thing is... mindhacks are very creative items on RP and Classic.
But considering the chaos of Classic... I am not surrpised most traitors mindhack security, cause if they don't move fast.. some other antag will kill em with their plans as colletral.
Heck I was once a traitor chaplain and got ignored mostly since I was taking it slow... but not one, but twice did my chapel get attacked by invading antagonist forces.
Aka Blob and Flock. Wich made me end up fighting them off since: "They are too close to my stash!"
I even befriended a wizard cause.. there was no way to survive those.

So I understand the sentiment of antags having to do whatever they can to make allies asap.

[pali6]

The shitty excuse Admins and Devs give all the time of giving new players a chance feels bullshit because it's only ever used by experienced players,

When have we stated this and in what context?

[zcrow]

I was thinking about ways to counter the really stinky mindhack-sec meta on classic. Maybe sec officers could have a lite version of the mindshield, and the mindhack implant works similar to the loyalty implant mechanic. That is to say:

Implant officer. They get zapped and a stun penalty, but are still technically loyal to Nanotrasen. If you wanna get your hands on that level of gear and advantage, you're gonna also have to bash that officer into submission before they turn hacked. That way, the option still exists, but makes it a bit more of a reasonable risk vs reward ratio.

[Goat_Real]

Mindhacks are great. I love mindhacks. They allow traitors and spies to get a partner that will help them guaranteed with whatever plan or gimmick they have in mind. The one getting mindhacked might have an issue with getting interrupted with whatever they wanted to do that round but, isn't that what a traitor does anyways? Being a wrench in the plans in whatever that you sometimes have to play around?

[RelentlessGarbage]

I was thinking about ways to counter the really stinky mindhack-sec meta on classic. Maybe sec officers could have a lite version of the mindshield, and the mindhack implant works similar to the loyalty implant mechanic. That is to say:

Implant officer. They get zapped and a stun penalty, but are still technically loyal to Nanotrasen. If you wanna get your hands on that level of gear and advantage, you're gonna also have to bash that officer into submission before they turn hacked. That way, the option still exists, but makes it a bit more of a reasonable risk vs reward ratio.

I'd be down for something like this, if only so that we see more creative uses of the mindhack in general on Classic. Mindhack the chef and have them dispose of all your corpses for you as part of some sick cannibalism rite! Mindhack the Chaplain and have them wantonly kidnap and space people with the mass driver! Mindhack the roboticist and have them fill the station with buttbots turn you into a cyborg supersolider! More than just "ok, use your stick and gun to space as many people as possible, and when the mindhack is about to expire give me all your gear."

Additionally, at risk of being off-topic, I'd like to ask: can the Head of Security's special mind-shield health implant be duplicated via Ruckingeur Kit, or can any extras be found? (Obviously, asking the HoS for permission to surgically-remove their implant - even for the purposes of just copying it - will probably never go well, but I'd be curious if it was even theoretically possible to have more than one right now.)

[Jackary]

The shitty excuse Admins and Devs give all the time of giving new players a chance feels bullshit because it's only ever used by experienced players,

When have we stated this and in what context?

I vividly remember multiple discussions in the discord when talks of mindhacks (and traitor items in general being brought up) having Admins and trusted Contributors say "Mindhacks give new players a chance to do good or still have fun." While I don't disagree with the fact that having an antag buddy can help you out, I feel the same excuse being given multiple timesover undermines the issues with mindhacks (atleast on classic).

[pali6]

You haven't even mentioned what issues mindhacks have. All you've said so far is that you hate them.

Admittedly discord search sucks badly but when I try to search for the relevant keywords the only one I see talking about mindhacks and new player experience is you.

[Judobum]

The removal of mindhacks would be a bit harsh and in my opinion be a unnecessary solution to a non existent problem. Mindhacking a secoff is strong but also leads to the fun situation of trying to contain a rogue officer and their hacker. Additionally without mindhacks many round dynamics are removed. For example the deception and distrust of mindhacked officers and not knowing who is bad or who isn't leads to interesting tension throughout the round alongside the chase and hunt of the mindhacker if they are discovered or the secoffis unhacked. Furthermore, mindhacking can lead to funny shenanigans that is limited by a players creativity. The argument that they give new players a chance is also shaky due to the fact that traitor gear can level the playing field for them just as well as a mindhack. Yes they may be less effective with c-sabers, katana's, revolvers, etc than an experienced player but they still do have a fighting chance and might be able to do more damage with those weapons/items than with just a mindhack.

[Zamujasa]

the only problem i have with mindhacks is that everyone just goes for security officers, which is mostly a problem because people are insufferably boring and uncreative

mindhacks are great because you can spend half your bad bucks to create your own hardmode traitor. out of ideas? unconvinced? dink someone and go "do whatever the fuck you want other than murder me, have fun"