Addition of s example to the slur/hatespeech rule.

[Lord_earthfire]

I hope i won't break out a big discussion here, but looking at this admin feedback thread:

https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=20140

Now, disregarding the person in question having quite an odd argumentation and bad behaviour. I would suggest to add the ruling regarding the expression "to lynch smb." to the rules regarding slurs/hatespeech.

Because i know this expression is mostly non-problematic in many countries and i was surprised when i read the admin stance about it, even though i can slightly understand the reasoning behind it.

So the suggestion is to just pick it up in the rules, like the b-slur is, because i could fully see myself running into that unknowingly and i believe i would not be the only one. 

Not sure if i should have place it in admin feedback or suggestions or this forum, so i put it here. Feel free to move it if it doesn't fit.

[zjdtmkhzt]

While we can't exactly have an enumeration of every thing you're not allowed to say, I must certainly agree that I was also surprised and unaware the first time I was told that that was a thing you can't say during a discussion on the discord.

[jan.antilles]

There are several terms that mean different things in different localities, and none of them are at the "ban immediately" level of severity coming from the admins. I'd personally rather give people a warning if they use it than to make the language rule even more bloated than it already is.

[Kotlol]

The problem with internationality is the fact one word could mean as bad as telling someone to murder their whole family (not really but example), but in your culture it means: "Dry leaf"

I also know that alot of UK words that are used more "casually" and "mean different" in that country will probably get your admins ticked off here. (mainly cigarette's)

The problem with multiplue meanings to things is something that has to be used "DISCREETLY", unless they are purposely pushing buttons.

Heck I even play games where the filter is so aggresive for international audiances where words that are USED in game for abillities or locations.. are blocked in chat cause: "Part of it might be a slur/insult in another language"

Anyhow.... reading everything, this guy has been pushing the language rule hard. As someone who has been warned by admins several times for tiny missteps. They use constraint just fine.

[arcticmog]

Perhaps indicating a primary region where language is interpreted would help in this? In my own dialect of English (irish) there are a number of terms that have completely different meanings in North America, some of which are quite negative. There are also slurs in this dialect that have no meaning in North American dialects of English. I just assume that the primary framing of language on the server is North America as that is both the most predominant English speaking language centre and the primary dialect that most second language learners learn these days as well, consequently I avoid taking most of my own dialects terms for this reason due to risk of misinterpretation or having a different meaning that I am ignorant of. It would also give some context for admin rulings on this subject to (because the L word having such extremely nasty connotations is primarily in North America, where in contrast its quite literally a common enough surname in ireland).

[Sonnzer]

yeah, the bad word rules are a bit silly, like, one time i got banned for saying the cigarette word, accidentally, and even when i corrected myself by saying it was a common word where i am (scotland), i still got slapped with a 3 day ban. it was appealed into a 1 day, but still, it's just a tad bit silly.

[arcticmog]

yeah, the bad word rules are a bit silly, like, one time i got banned for saying the cigarette word, accidentally, and even when i corrected myself by saying it was a common word where i am (scotland), i still got slapped with a 3 day ban. it was appealed into a 1 day, but still, it's just a tad bit silly.

They aren't silly, slurs are pretty nasty and should be avoided, but as etymological entities they are heavily bound to cultural context. A slur is much more than just a "bad word". They are extensions of the will to oppress various marginalized groups, shunning, shaming and "reminding of X place in social hierarchy". Slurs being recognised as horrible fuck no's is an important part of overcoming discrimination, both overt and casual. They are also tied to violence said marginalized group faces or had faced in the past and are an implicit threat, when the bigot is beating you with a stick what words are they screaming do you think? It's hard to get it if you've never belonged to a marginalized group but this is important context to know why they matter.

[Kotlol]

yeah, the bad word rules are a bit silly, like, one time i got banned for saying the cigarette word, accidentally, and even when i corrected myself by saying it was a common word where i am (scotland), i still got slapped with a 3 day ban. it was appealed into a 1 day, but still, it's just a tad bit silly.

They aren't silly, slurs are pretty nasty and should be avoided, but as etymological entities they are heavily bound to cultural context. A slur is much more than just a "bad word". They are extensions of the will to oppress various marginalized groups, shunning, shaming and "reminding of X place in social hierarchy". Slurs being recognised as horrible fuck no's is an important part of overcoming discrimination, both overt and casual. They are also tied to violence said marginalized group faces or had faced in the past and are an implicit threat, when the bigot is beating you with a stick what words are they screaming do you think? It's hard to get it if you've never belonged to a marginalized group but this is important context to know why they matter.

Yea but that's the problem of this topic's discussion....

You are now saying Slurs shouldn't be said in the server.. despite what different cultures have meaning to similiar words.

We are allowed to curse on Goonstation. I can say FUCK all I want. But can't say slurs due to things meaning in culture.
But at the same time.. if all slurs are wrong.. we are pushing a grey area into a "this is wrong area"
And we gotta ask at the same time where do we draw the line.
If I say a Slur in another language... is that fair game? I mean if the admins don't understand my slur then what?
Or what if a word spelled in 1 language like English... means a slur in another?

While I think discretion is fine, the thing we have to note is that goonstation has "international" appeal.
So there needs to be abit more "clarity" on the slur and hate speech side.

After all the "Cigarette" issue may come from a place of ignorance.. it's unlikely but possible. But that's hypothetical.

And last but not least... what if I use an ancient slur? Something that is seemed goofy this day and age? Or make up a slur?

Like calling you a "PEASANT" as a "CEO" is slurring afterall...

This is what I mean with it being a greyline and you showing it's a "No zone" but a blanketed "NO ZONE"

But what this topic really is asking is: "Can the greyline be abit more clearly"

As for the incident that incited this debate.. (as in the original bannee), that guy can go F off for all I care.

[jan.antilles]

The gray area is handled by the admins telling someone "don't use this word, it is a slur." If someone replies "oh sorry" or "shoot I didn't know" then no harm done, we all get to learn new things sometimes. We'll still note it because sometimes people play ignorant and then go say it again, but not knowing something is a slur isn't going to be held against you.

If you respond to "don't use this word, it's a slur" with "well I don't think it's a slur, I'm just using it to mean X, nobody in my country thinks it's bad, I have free speech and you can't survive in the real world if you care about this" etc, then yeah I'm gonna have a problem with it.

[Kotlol]

The gray area is handled by the admins telling someone "don't use this word, it is a slur." If someone replies "oh sorry" or "shoot I didn't know" then no harm done, we all get to learn new things sometimes. We'll still note it because sometimes people play ignorant and then go say it again, but not knowing something is a slur isn't going to be held against you.

If you respond to "don't use this word, it's a slur" with "well I don't think it's a slur, I'm just using it to mean X, nobody in my country thinks it's bad, I have free speech and you can't survive in the real world if you care about this" etc, then yeah I'm gonna have a problem with it.

And that's the clear response we need on how to describe the GREY LINE.

[UrsulaMejor]

We don't have a set region/locality for interpretting slurs. There are several terms we do not allow that are common and relatively inoffensive words in America that are offensive in Britain, for example, that we do not allow, and a really obvious common British word we do not allow because it is offensive in America. Those obviously aren't the only two regions that exist, but that's just the easiest example of two terms that represent a mutually exclusive region.

The "Gray line" is, ultimately, very very easy to stay away from. Most people have zero notes about language. In fact, the vast majority of players have never had to be talked to about some term or another in years of playing. Of those that are talked to at least once, the most common response is "oh, didn't know" and it never comes up again.

How you respond to being told to stop matters a lot more than the thing you actually said in most cases. The only auto-ban examples are the obvious terms that don't need to be said. If you can speak english well enough to play, you know what words will get you auto-banned on this server.

There, in my opinion, isn't an issue here. Our rules are socially, not technically, defined. You either absorb the community vibe and adjust or you rapidly find yourself out the door (either because you didn't like the vibes and left, or we showed you the way forcefully)

[Mikhaelman]

things like this are kinda iffy from culture to culture i guess but alot of it is common sense i think sort of like there are alot of words that people should know are not cool the lynching thing is a bit sensitive in America because of how pocs have been treated, but i can also se the disconnect because the first time i ever heard of it was in young guns and didnt learn about the fucked up stuff until way laer in life. lynch is also a name but thats not relevant here