Complaint Flourish / Goonstation 1 Classic / 2-16-2022

[Cirno]

Admin: Flourish (Discord)
Server: Goonstation 1 Classic
Date + time: February 16 2022, not sure exact time, somewhere around 10:30 PM MST
Synopsis: This is a complaint about a permanent ban I just received. This post is not an appeal to said permanent ban, I understand those go in a different forum, but rather a complaint about the admin applying it in the first place. The exchange is short, I will post the logs below, and give my take on the matter.

Logs: Spoiler!

Admin PM from Flourish
What was up with deadchat last round? Why'd you keep antagonizing another player? If someone breaks the rules, you should ahelp them, not keep a list of grudges and randomly start arguing with them

Admin PM to-flourish (Discord): i have, i ahelped him many times yet he continues to be here for some reason, so yes i am going to antagonize him and not let him get away with his reputation of being a griefing idiot

You have been banned by flourish (Discord).
Reason: You've been here for a long time and have been spoken to extensively about your toxic attitude. You do not seem to have improved much. Keeping a list of grudges against someone and antagonizing and insulting them over things that have happened in previous rounds (and have been dealt with, if you ahelped them), and then declaring your intent to continue, despite an admin telling you not to, is not okay. Do not appeal this ban for at least a month.

Extra information: I was permanently banned (ckey: CirnoBAKA) for verbally attacking a player in deadchat that I have had many negative experiences with, due to constantly being a murder victim of his, and each time he was never a traitor. Flourish claims these things have been dealt with if I ahelped the player, but that's clearly not the case if I've been encountering foul play from the same ckey enough times for me to not only notice this is repeatedly happening, but remember their name for doing it. If it's been dealt with, why do I keep seeing them not only on the server, but continuing to grief despite being ahelped for it multiple times? Why have I been made out to be the bad guy for informing other players that, hey, this guy will just straight up kill you if you aren't a traitor?

In the ban message, Flourish claims he instructed me to not harass this person (or anyone else, for that matter) in deadchat, which is false. My response to Flourish explaining why that player was being called out for his behavior led to the permanent ban, with nothing in between. I was not told to stop what I was doing, nor does it state anywhere in the rules that pointing out someone who is constantly breaking the rules is wrong. In fact, rule #1 is do not grief, which is why I'm surprised I was dealt a ban of any kind, let alone a permanent one, for my behavior. Flourish merely asked me WHY I was antagonizing another player, which I responded to earnestly. I did not metagrudge in any way, I did not seek anyone out and physically attack them, or abuse them IC in any way, this was one single incident of berating in deadchat because I am angry that people I have witnessed multiple times break the rules get ahelped yet continue to show up and continue to break the rules. In fact, it was just a day or two ago that this person yet again killed me, was not a traitor at the end of the round, was immediately ahelped, and STILL shows up on the server, almost like nobody ever does anything and he gets a free ride to kill whoever he wants.

Lastly, Flourish says I have been "spoken to extensively about my toxic attitude" and I have no idea what that means. I wasn't aware that expecting my fellow players to follow the rules and pointing out when they've been terrible means I've been toxic. I do not think any sort of ban should have been applied to me, and if the staff truly believes that I've done something wrong, then at least say something so we can have a discussion. Jumping immediately to a permanent ban, to someone that has been playing here for over a decade, is ridiculous. I'm no spring chicken, I am well aware of the rules, and I've never been scolded for naming and shaming rulebreakers in deadchat prior to this incident. I'd like to request my ban be entirely removed without waiting 30 days to appeal it (again, I know this is not the ban appeals forum and I will gladly make an appeal there if told to) and for Flourish to re-evaluate situations before doing frankly ridiculous things like permanently banning a long-time player for wanting someone else to obey the same rules the rest of us do.

[Gerhazo]

because I am angry that people I have witnessed multiple times break the rules get ahelped yet continue to show up and continue to break the rules

In the last entire year, only one of your adminhelps was directed towards the person you went off on (the incident that led to the ban wasn't adminhelped to my knowledge either).

The reports all seemed to generally be about different people and there weren't that many of them (counted around 8, but a significant portion of these were also simple and quick issues like someone using bigoted language etc, rather than griefing/malicious demeanor that is more elaborate). 
Could you have mistakenly misinterpreted them being all/mostly tied to this single individual? Because it doesn't seem like they were constantly reported, or that those reports were ignored.

I could check again just in case I made a mistake if you believe that is happening.

[Cirno]

This has been happening for years now, since at least 2017 or early 2018, and he is one of *checks text file* eight people terrible enough to make it on my list, not counting the big two everybody knows, Lord Doom and George Melons. The others are big names any goon staff member would know for being such awful players that they usually end up sploded/unappealably permabanned, like Beatbeat Goodbeat, Kingston Hujsak, and Zorato Turkeybutt. (if this goes against naming and shaming rules I apologize, but these people have been gone for many years, like pre-2016 or something). I've been on and off sporadically in recent times so all these events definitely didn't happen in the same year, so I don't think you need to double check the logs unless you want to trawl through my entire adminhelp history, if that's even possible to do. My point is that anyone who makes it onto this list I've made is a notoriously utterly awful person and not your average, run of the mill "haha i stole your id and egun, deal with it captain" kind of jerk. I don't just carry around some document where I write down every time someone slipped me and farted in my face, you have to expend effort to get put there. It's a list of people to avoid or watch out for and is in no way some sort of document to meticulously metagrudge anyone who has slighted me. That is why, to me, it was extremely irritating to not only see this person never receive any punishments, I was the one instead punished, when I just want the people who are doing things like throwing me out of the escape shuttle then bragging about it in chat, and not being a traitor after round end, actually punished in a manner that matters: long duration bans for abhorrent behavior.

I've been here for a very long time and while I have never seen my own notes file, off the top of my head I have been banned for killing people when not a traitor... twice I think? in more than TEN. YEARS. Feel free to correct me on this, but I honestly don't remember having a history of being a terrible player at any time during my history here. I toe the line and while I'll admit I've been rude to people for things like stealing from my department or ruining some gimmick I spent an hour preparing, I've never gotten so angry at someone that I just started killing them. The worst thing I remember doing is mixing the wrong beaker and setting medbay on fire with napalm foam or something back in I think 2011, and possibly a nontraitor singulo release also around the same time, so this is why I get upset when I see people engaging in wretched behavior getting off scot free instead of getting the classic SomethingAwful style treatment of "here's a permaban, give us a good explanation as to why you should be let back here, since you seem to think you can do what you want", because I don't recall ever being any kind of problem player or someone whose presence causes people to groan in frustration.

I'll be back in ~12 hours to see if anyone else has commented on this.

[Gerhazo]

Looked a bit further, none of your adminhelps between 2018-2022 are towards the individual, except the one.

Inside that one:
You threatened to kill the janitor for seemingly messing with your workplace or something, the person you're complaining about stepped in telling you to stay back and that the janitor didn't do anything.
Your appropriate response to this was to splash them with chlorine trifluoride and fluorosulfuric acid.



Coupled with a bunch of elitist/gatekeepy and provocative comments throughout the round:


So there weren't any adminhelps regarding the individual from you in four years and the one that did happen recently was seemingly initiated and continuously provoked by you.

Which leads me to consider asking again whether this may have been mistakenly misinterpreting the individual.

[Cirno]

Which leads me to consider asking again whether this may have been mistakenly misinterpreting the individual.

It's certainly possible, I even wondered if it was just a random name that happened to be the exact same one I was seeing in the past, but then the ckey at the end of the round I was berating him in was the same one I had written down, so I assumed it was the same person. I very rarely adminhelp in the first place because I do not have issues with the vast majority of people who play here and do not get constantly griefed, beyond very minor things like "that asshole stole my <whatever>" so to me, it seemed like just another incident from the same person when the ckeys matched up. Usually when these things happen, I have to quickly check at the very end of the round for their character name to see if they were a traitor/mindslave/whatever among all the spam, and maybe some of the adminhelps didn't get through because I'm having to quickly type something up and send it during postround?

If it ends up being a case of mistaken identity somehow then I have some apologizing to do, I'm just angry about people getting away with things that used to be punished with a heavy hand around here. I still do not believe I deserve a permanent ban or a 30 day wait to post an appeal, and while I admit being butthurt in deadchat doesn't help the problem at all, this could have been solved a different way, i.e telling me to never air my grievances with rulebreakers in game chat channels. Whenever I get PMed about something, there might be a little back and forth, but I've always agreed and stopped whatever I was told to not do. As I said earlier, I don't recall having a long list of bans for being a terrible player, I rarely have interactions with admins at all.

[Gerhazo]

To re-iterate you don't have that many adminhelps on record, as you yourself mentioned rarely doing them, so the belief that people that you're adminhelping constantly are being let go lightly might be incorrect.

If you genuinely believe that at a point someone's in significant/unwarranted degree griefing you or otherwise acting maliciously (albeit preferably in a situation that doesn't seem like you were to instigate it, such as the one I've described in my previous post), feel free to adminhelp it.

Also, with the description of your self-maintained "list", it seems you're setting yourself up for frustration as that can probably induce confirmation bias, where you'll focus on and mostly remember only your bad experiences while playing. If playing the game leaves you frustrated most of the time I'd recommend taking a break to avoid burnout, otherwise if that's not what happens then perhaps trying to play without taking it into account (alongside the previous advice re: adminhelping).

[Flourish]

Here's an excerpt of what you said -

Spoiler!

2022-02-17 04:50:22.406 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "oh stop whining [name]"

2022-02-17 04:50:30.442 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "you have killed me 5 or 6 times when not a traitor"

2022-02-17 04:50:35.149 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "you aren't some pristine player"

2022-02-17 04:50:57.438 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "yeah, dumb ass shit like throwing me out of the shuttle or lasering me to death because i *slapped you"

2022-02-17 04:51:01.571 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "this isnt the only character i play"

2022-02-17 04:51:11.061 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "and at end of round are you ever a traitor when you do this? no"

2022-02-17 04:51:27.048 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "you have, deny it all you want, its not like i've made a ban request or anything"

2022-02-17 04:51:35.309 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "i just know to watch out for you because you are a shitmaster"

2022-02-17 04:51:50.867 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "i don't"

2022-02-17 04:52:00.289 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "your ckey is [ckey]"

2022-02-17 04:52:07.727 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "unless you are a different [name], which would be kinda funny"

2022-02-17 04:52:26.134 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "is [name] a random name? i didnt think [first name] was eligible for random, [last name] is though"

2022-02-17 04:53:08.265 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "well we'll see at end of round if you are [ckey] or not"

2022-02-17 04:53:19.480 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "ckey [ckey] is the guy who has been shit and griefkilled me several times"

2022-02-17 04:53:41.243 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "i'm not, i just keep a record of these things because i have been on goon for quite a long time, over a decade in fact"

2022-02-17 04:54:39.510 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "[name] maybe just dont kill people when you arent a traitor, it's pretty simple"

2022-02-17 04:55:06.661 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "yes and that's why i have you down multiple different times killing me, and at end of round neither of us are antags"

2022-02-17 04:55:14.697 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "and now you are resorting to ad hominem once being called out"

2022-02-17 04:55:18.347 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "clear sign of guilt"

2022-02-17 04:55:33.716 say Grump Filthmonger CirnoBAKA [DEAD]: says, "it's very simple: stop being a shit player"

In the ban message, Flourish claims he instructed me to not harass this person (or anyone else, for that matter) in deadchat, which is false.

I was not told to stop what I was doing

Here's what I messaged you - 

What was up with deadchat last round? Why'd you keep antagonizing another player? If someone breaks the rules, you should ahelp them, not keep a list of grudges and randomly start arguing with them

"You should do x, not y" is pretty clear "don't do y". Your response of "yes i am going to antagonize him and not let him get away with his reputation of being a griefing idiot" is also pretty clearly declaring your intent to continue doing this sort of thing. I see nothing false about your ban reason.

I've never been scolded for naming and shaming rulebreakers in deadchat prior to this incident. 

Just in 2022 you've been warned about your toxic attitude and language three separate times, one of them resulting in a weekban. Notes about your attitude go back like five years. Just because you don't recognize this as a chronic issue doesn't mean it isn't. Just because you haven't been warned about this very specific kind of toxicity before doesn't mean you can't be banned for your longstanding toxic behavior.

[Cirno]

So let me get this straight, because I've been warned a few times and weekbanned once in a recent period, that means I have a history of "longstanding toxic behavior"? That's an absolutely ridiculous accusation, and is part of the reason why I even made this complaint in the first place.

Notes about your attitude go back like five years.

This is Goonstation, being a jerk here is kind of par for the course as long as it's related to the game and not people's nationality or religion or other real life things. I mean, beating/shoving people to the ground, farting on them repeatedly (at least on Goonstation where farting is possible), robbing them, and calling them names like "captain's a comdom" has been SS13 culture for longer than I've been around. I'm not saying I have a 100% pristine record, but permanently banning someone for this is unnecessary. I didn't argue or complain when I got that weekban, despite the fact that you can cook spaghetti, and one of the random noodle names is "sperghetti", not to mention Space Autism was a part of Pathology.


I made this thread because I felt this punishment was entirely unjust and deserved more than just a ban appeal. Plus, I was complaining about people who were doing much worse things, i.e murder when not a traitor, and your response was to let them keep doing it and ban me instead. I already stated above that in retrospect, I agreed that my choice of how to deal with the problem wasn't the wisest, but what else do you expect from a longtime player who keeps seeing the same ckey doing shitty behavior? I never get ahelped for that kind of thing because I don't do it. I shouldn't be punished for expecting others to not do it, and getting upset when they do. If you disagree with that, PM me my entire notes file so I can see for myself, because I do not believe one bit that I have a history of "longstanding toxic behavior" unless you consider general goonery to be "toxic behavior" and not actual rule violations. I can guarantee that my ratio of rule violations I have been punished for vs time I have been a member of Goonstation is like a drop in the ocean. People who ACTUALLY have a history of being utterly terrible players get sploded, like the previously mentioned Beatbeat Goodbeat and Kingston Hujsak. I am nowhere near that level of disruptive behavior, and it's ludicrous to say that I am.

Oh, and since it will probably be brought up: Yes, I've done plenty of minor violent acts like throwing glass shards at people, punching, suplexing, throwing into a glass table, whatever. Earlier in this same thread, Gerhazo posted a log of me splashing the griefer in question with a CLF3+Fluoro beaker while not a traitor. The thing is, this won't kill you, and it was literally done right in the medbay lobby where aid was a moment away. This is typical for Goonstation Classic, which does not enforce roleplaying and features players beating each other up all the time, as long as you aren't murdering everyone.

So, I'd like to sum this up by saying, if you think I'm being too much of a jerk even for Goonstation, the proper response is normally to say something and deal with the problem by having a discussion like adults, and not permaban long-time players. The ball's in your court, Flourish. If you really think you did absolutely nothing wrong here and I'm way outta line for choosing to make an admin complaint about being permabanned for getting upset at, again, someone flagrantly violating rule 1 multiple times, then I'll wait a month and post in the appeals forum. I think you overstepped your bounds here in applying punishment, though. So what'll it be?

[Cirno]

Huh, no response at all from Flourish in.... over 3 months! I'll be appealing the ban soon but I haven't entirely forgotten about being falsely slandered by a staff member 7 years my junior in terms of time in the LLJK community. Apparently even Popecrunch, one of the very few people who's been around longer than I have, has even left now because of things like this. You gonna apologize to me, Flourish, or just continue to ignore this post where you lied about me in an attempt to justify a completely unwarranted permanent ban? Honestly expected this thread to get quietly locked and ignored a long time ago, can't have one of the original players complaining about a headmin!

[CaptainBravo]

no officer you don't understand

the admin that banned me WASN'T leet like jeff k

they didn't even have access to goonsay. they can't do this!!

-----





Speaking as someone who is two days your senior - and since you don't seem to be willing to accept actual patience, logic, and proof your own wrongdoing in any form - stop being a toxic, elitist dickhead and go away.

[Flourish]

I didn't bother responding to your follow-up because it seemed like you were utterly convinced that you were in the right and wouldn't accept otherwise, despite the evidence. I'm not going to apologize to you because you don't deserve an apology.

Being a jerk is not par for the course here. Maybe it was in 2013 Goonstation, but not anymore. Autism jokes and shit like that have been removed for multiple years now (good riddance). Goon culture has changed for the better and your failure to recognize that and adapt is pretty unfortunate. Being "one of the original players" really doesn't matter when you're an asshole. 

Notes about your attitude go back like five years.

I'd like to correct this - your earliest "hey this player sucks" note is actually from 2013. A standalone note about how someone sucks, especially from so long ago, isn't necessarily reliable. However, this sentiment shows up over and over and over again and becomes a clear pattern. (And this isn't even including your dozen or so notes about bigotry and grief.)

So, I'd like to sum this up by saying, if you think I'm being too much of a jerk even for Goonstation, the proper response is normally to say something and deal with the problem by having a discussion like adults, and not permaban long-time players.

I'm not going to devote countless hours of my time and energy to painstakingly try to explain to every problem player why they're a problem. Besides the sheer entitlement on your part (especially given the many warnings and chances you've already been extended), it's also incredibly inefficient moderation of the game and community. As we can see here, even in the instances where I do devote that time and energy, it often goes absolutely nowhere. Bans exist for a good reason, and the community is better off with you banned.