[PR] Lizard abilities, wolf heals, and hair powers

[KikiMofo]

I really don't care about letting lizards change their colors. Thats fine. No real big deal to fight there.

[Mouse]

If lizards are gonna change color make them look like chameleons instead of generic lizards.

[Studenterhue]

I'm not seeing the dev time and code cost angle either. Superlagg already decided it was worth their time to code it, and did so, so now we're discussing whether it should be in the game and what changes should be made if any. I guess the question as to whether it's worth the time and effort is already answered then? (Honestly, that's not a question I've seen our coders ask, except maybe as "I'd love to code this, but it'd require so much effort".)

I suppose there would be some bugs to clean up after the code gets merged (i.e. it goes in) and if some of the functions used are changed, then someone would have to update it. But it's sort of on the PR maker (Superlagg) to iron out the bugs, so if something breaks, it's something minor the coders can quickly fix and/or something obscure you wouldn't see in normal gameplay, and the update concern is sort of a hazard for every piece of code (and something for coders to worry about than us mere users). (Also, ideally, with the way merging works, it'd just be a few buttons/commands to add the code to the game.)

But anyways, the "Spacebux should be only for cosmetics" claim is actually very true, and something I knew but had not been on my mind until it was mentioned. I don't think changing scale colors is game-changing enough to push Lizard past "purely cosmetic", for reasons already said, but temperature regulation and to some extent eating organs to heal would be in my eyes.

It's going a bit out of scope of the thread, but at this point, it'd probably make more sense for Lizard and other races to be traits, which seemed to get some traction in another thread.

Speaking of organs, I again don't see eating organs for ability points being too much of a problem; you probably won't use the abilities much, so you probably won't want points a lot. But I really like Frank Stein's proposal to just make the abilities have a cooldown or require standing still over the ability points thing. They're aesthetic abilities, so it makes a lot of sense to give them a minor cost at best rather than require resources. (After all, we don't make blobs have to spend points to change color for example).

tl;dr, don't see time and effort argument against, do like the idea of making the color-shifting abilities require time or standing still over ability points from organs. Maybe not eating organs to heal though, unless Lizard was moved from Spacebux option to another system.

[Wisecrack34]

I generally don't really understand why races aren't traits personally. Regardless of bonuses gained from it, DNA manipulation is supposed to come from traits.

Plus, y'know, player expression. If too many issues arise with turning into Citadel then we can just roll it back and verbally abuse the culprits.

[Drago156]

My issue with making them traits is that some people (like myself) have the max amount of traits you can pick as well as no extra trait points to spend for said traits. If maybe there was some way around this for JUST mutantrace, that would be awesome, but even just adding in maybe one more slot and an extra starting point would be fine by me.

[BlackPhoenix]

I mean, there is a way around it. Genetics. They can give you mutant races.

[Superlagg]

My issue with making them traits is that some people (like myself) have the max amount of traits you can pick as well as no extra trait points to spend for said traits. If maybe there was some way around this for JUST mutantrace, that would be awesome, but even just adding in maybe one more slot and an extra starting point would be fine by me.

I made a PR for something like that, where you can choose to be a lizard through character creation. https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=14955

I mean, there is a way around it. Genetics. They can give you mutant races.

They can do a lot of things, but they often don't.

Plus, it's a much different IC feeling to run to genetics every round asking to be turned into some weird lizard thing, as opposed to being a lizard from roundstart (and aesthetically before then).

I suppose there would be some bugs to clean up after the code gets merged (i.e. it goes in) and if some of the functions used are changed, then someone would have to update it. But it's sort of on the PR maker (Superlagg) to iron out the bugs, so if something breaks, it's something minor the coders can quickly fix and/or something obscure you wouldn't see in normal gameplay, and the update concern is sort of a hazard for every piece of code (and something for coders to worry about than us mere users). (Also, ideally, with the way merging works, it'd just be a few buttons/commands to add the code to the game.)

With how many changes I made to chemcode, there're bound to be some fucky bugs, especially since I barely tested it aside from seeing if it actually worked. Partly because chem interactions are so complex that it'd take an actual turbochemnerd to figure them out. Best to just make sure the common chems don't do anything ultrafucked and leave the rest to the unpaid testforce.

Though yeah, fixing whatever comes up is definitely on me!

But anyways, the "Spacebux should be only for cosmetics" claim is actually very true, and something I knew but had not been on my mind until it was mentioned. I don't think changing scale colors is game-changing enough to push Lizard past "purely cosmetic", for reasons already said, but temperature regulation and to some extent eating organs to heal would be in my eyes.

Hm.

Maybe SpaceBux could also be used for gameplay changing things too. Mainly things to make the game more difficult, things that might not fit into traits.

Basically, I'd move the temperature organ thing to a trait, or spacebux thing, or something.

Speaking of organs, I again don't see eating organs for ability points being too much of a problem; you probably won't use the abilities much, so you probably won't want points a lot. But I really like Frank Stein's proposal to just make the abilities have a cooldown or require standing still over the ability points thing. They're aesthetic abilities, so it makes a lot of sense to give them a minor cost at best rather than require resources. (After all, we don't make blobs have to spend points to change color for example).

I could just do a cooldown. I do want to make lizards do non-human things to work their non-human abilities, though. It *is* an aesthetic ability, but it affects a bit more than a blob's color does, and lizard points don't really have any other use (at the moment!).

[BlackPhoenix]

I will totally grant that, for the roleplay server, there is a very important difference between spawning in as a mutant race and going and becoming one. Maybe the roleplay servers should have a different option for that than the main servers, because of the different implications, sure!

That said, man am I tired of the useless genetics meme. It's a self-fulfilling cycle of saying Genetics is just for superpowering yourself, people signing up to do just that because that's all they know, and people seeing that and repeating it. Discussion on improvement to genetics to make it more involved might be worthwhile, this isn't the thread for them, but I really don't dig on "Good luck getting genetics to change your body type" as a reason we should ignore that genetics does, in fact, do that thing too.

I generally prefer Spacebux being used for purely cosmetic to mildly gameplay changing things, or things that are just straight up negative for you as a sort of challenge mode. Like spawning in cuffed, straightjacketed, blindfolded, muzzled, and anklecuffed. I have a -lot- of spacebux saved up, and being able to buy in game advantages because I've been a nerd for longer just seems...eugh. I'm fine with lizards color shifting, don't really dig on any of the other changes to lizards, but werewolf healing is neat. Just make the color shift an innate ability they get with a moderate cooldown, IMO.

[Drago156]

My issue with doing it through genetics isn't that they can't/won't, but rather the inconsistency of trying to get even a single specific gene, especially the mutantrace ones. It can take quite some time to get said gene, often more time than the given round permits.

On the topic of spacebux things, you can absolutely buy a number of seriously disadvantageous things already such as corpse or no limbs, and i'm sure there's things already in spacebux that can advantage someone in some way.

Finally, I'm not sure I'm fully understanding the opposition you have against this in general Phoenix, it's not *really* going to chance much in what you can do or how one plays besides allowing peeps to customize their aesthetics a bit more, and if there's concern about this being abused, maybe limit it to a one time only deal per round or something, but scale color doesn't really change someone's ID, clothes, or belongings, which are 3 of the biggest indicators to someone's identity in my experience. I also disagree with limiting it to just RP, considering even the main servers allow RP, just that it's not required, as well as it would be kind of non-sensical to have a feature on one server but not on the other.

[BlackPhoenix]

Without getting into genetics wishlisting, there’s a lot I would change about it that would be nice and help incentivize geneticists to leave their stations. Mutant races being their own research where you have to complete the puzzle thing, but unlock the ability to do so via various other mutations being found (anaerobic would be one of the unlocks for fish mutant, for instance).

Like I said, I’m down for spacebux being detrimental or cosmetic, but not beneficial. Apparently they already somewhat are with other mutant races, so I’m not arguing this would be novel. Just against the trend, I guess.

I think the argument of features being on one server and not the other being nonsensical falls flat on its face the moment you connect to RP and see the needs system. RP is a different gameplay style and has different rules already, as well as an entire sub system implemented to facilitate rp. Giving the RP server the ability to pick their mutant race without needing spacebux or a trait just makes sense, but I’m not fond of the idea for the main stations.

[Lady Birb]

I think that the mutant races should be a character creation option instead of spacebux, if only because everyone who is against making it part of character creation has yet to give a reason that isn't just blatant anti-furry fearmongering.

Also new lizard abilities good yes

[BlackPhoenix]

I don't think I've said anything about furries, so I assume you're not including me in that group because I said I think it makes sense for the RP server?

On the RP server, I think the roleplay aspect of wanting to play a lizard guy or a skelebones or whatever as your character is important and if you have to pay spacebux every time to do it, you're gonna run out of the bux, and then you either have to have some reason your character isn't always a lizard guy (I tend to go with the lizard guy stole the other guy's identity), or play a different character until you can afford it again. I think that's stifling to character development, so I totally dig that being a character option.

That said, if they're going to be mechanically different in a positive way and be used on the not-roleplay server, I think at minimum they should cost spacebux, but would really prefer they either be spacebux and cosmetic, or genetics activated and gameplay-affecting.

[kyle2143]

So I'm going to merge this one. This sort of thing has been talked about in admin chat many times, and as best as I can tell, the general consensus of the admins is that we prefer mechanically different mutantraces over simple re-skins.

Yes, I know that originally, the lizard as a spacebux purchase was added as a joke. But I think that we are, collectively, bored by the concept of just re-skinned humans who the AI doesn't consider human by default. And this is a step in the direction that we want to take non-antagonist mutantraces.