Remove gang from rotation entirely

[Mouse]

Every gang round is the same.  The same folks join the gangs and immediately nonhuman everyone not in their gang, build ttvs and blow up everything, wall off everything, completely ignore any objectives and in fact work counter to them, and generally make old Ass Day look calm and reasonable.

In its present form, gang is not redeemable.  It is flawed on a fundamental level, is hated by everyone including the people who profess to like it (as can be seen by their abject refusal to even make the slightest attempt at achieving the objectives of the game mode), and does nothing other than allow the biggest assholes in the game to grief with no consequences whether or not they rolled antag.

[Sundance]

I want to disagree here, but I have no rational argument. I don't like removing things unless truly warranted. 

It's... like a directionless Rev with zero repercussion for playing incorrectly. That's the one thing Rev has going for it, it's possible to lose, you don't have that weight when it comes to gangs. Gangs as Mouse points out is "click locker if you want to grief" mode. 

I think it should get the pathology treatment, removal pending rework, and genuine discussion made here and not on discord where it will get lost.

[pali6]

Some time ago I suggested publishing the last gang somehow every X minutes. Not sure what would be appropriate. Gibbing a ganger seems excessive but it'd have to be something they can't just shrug off.

[Frank_Stein]

I think we need think about what we want from the mode on whether or not the mechanics are built in to facilitate that.

I like tags as much as the next person, but do they really encourage people to think of those places as their turf, or do they just try to find places to hide passive point generators?

Does voluntary recruitment by flyer encourage team cooperation?

Is the pursuit of gang points more compelling than violence and murder?

[aft2001]

I definitely agree with the points Mouse has made.

I don't know if a Rule-based solution will work, but, how about:
Gang members are not allowed to directly involve others in conflicts with other gangs. This includes:
Doing things with guaranteed/very likely collateral damage (bombs and the like)
Rogueing the AI
Killing non-gangers
Starting plasma fires

Essentially, they are not allowed to grief anyone except people in gangs. This would be an older rule being revived. Additionally, requiring gang members to **always** be wearing their uniform, or having some semi-reliable way to figure out who's in a gang that is not yours, would ensure that people get afraid of attacking someone they only suspect of being in a gang on account of the grief restrictions, or people attacking others purposefully and just using the excuse "I thought they were in a gang."

[zcrow]

I think this is the issue. There's nothing to incentivize gang vs gang. Its mostly gang vs station, which kind of sucks. Perhaps notify gangs when their territory is being taken over, encouraging them to go and defend it.

Fully agree on the outfits part. Right now it just feels like a free antag pass, and isn't super fun to be a part of or have to fight.

[Drago156]

I think gang can very much be redeemed, I have had less experiences with the round ending with half a dozen holes in the station and half the non-gang crew dead in the past few months compared to before, as well as some more enjoyable and actually entertaining rounds with gang. Although I do think a lot of these issues kind of stem from gangers being full antags as well as the gangs being fully open to self-antag bar sec and command.

I do think that this can seriously be fixed with gang members having some HARD NOs and rules added to them so they can't just bomb the shit out of everything just because they can.

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

Ok but how do we stop it from devolving back into the rounds where antags do nothing? Before gangs became griefing addicts, there was the exact opposite problem. That should be considered in fixing it.

[zcrow]

Maybe gangs need a sec hud type flag on opposing gang members, and they're only allow to attack each other. Innocents will get caught in the crossfire, but thats kinda fun.

[Lady Birb]

Ok but how do we stop it from devolving back into the rounds where antags do nothing? Before gangs became griefing addicts, there was the exact opposite problem. That should be considered in fixing it.

Yeah before gang griefing rules were removed gang rounds were basically extended for anyone who didn't join a gang

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

IMO gangs should have specialized griefing rules. Anything that causes massive station damage or kills a bunch of random guys is bad, killing people actually in your way or members of other gangs for no reason is OK.

[Lady Birb]

I say a good first start is to make it physically impossible for a gang member to assemble or use TTVs and canbombs again

[KikiMofo]

I still think we should MERGE gang and rev rounds. How we do that I dunno.

[Drago156]

Iunno what y'all saw from pre-antag gang, but I saw MORE grief and MORE bombings than I do now and have in the last six months. Pre-antag gang made me want to just fucking off myself at roundstart because EVERY time I got gang leader I had my locker fucking bombed no matter what, even when I tried to be actively peaceful.

Heck I even had one RD gang leader, pre-antag gangs, blow me up with my own TTVs when I was doing my own thing to blow off steam (was gonna bomb some remote place in debris) and they never even set down their locker that entire round.

[BatElite]

How would you combine the two? Revs is shitty when you try to resist the mob/conversion dynamic, but otherwise it's good. I don't think gangs has that much going for it. As I understand the problem with gangs is that crew have no incentive to engage with gangs and gangers doing gang stuff relies on the honour system.

Bad idea: a repeating timer which counts down to the lowest scoring gang getting gibbed, that'd be some incentive to get points. :P


Oh actually, here's a couple thoughts:
-The drugs and guns rewards are in a large part dependant on a gang setting up production somewhere, since there's not much to go around otherwise. While that might be in keeping with the theme, you can't really get up to much criming doing that.
-There is basically no incentive for command or sec to try and oppose gangs. Nearly every round the last month or so I've seen the cap or sec make an announcement along the lines of "if gangs keep their shit between one another sec isn't going to bother".