Gang needs to be reworked at the very least

[Mouse]

Gang is bad.  In theory it's good, but in practice it's pretty much the same thing every gang round.  Some folks, without fail, join a gang and then plasma flood, vent co2, hotwire the engine, set off ttvs and canbombs and hellmixes, vent the halls, and generally just destroy everything.  They rarely, if ever, even bother to wear the outfit.

Essentially, as it currently exists, gang mode is just a way to self-antag with no consequences.  You could replace every gang round with an ass day round and it wouldn't be any different.  Given that self-antagging is very much frowned upon, a game mode fundamentally based around it being in regular rotation is just silly.

Anyways, the big, major flaw with gang that I see is that the people who like gang don't actually like gang.  By consistently not doing what the nominal point of gang is (turf wars) and in fact doing the exact opposite (blowing up everything), they demonstrate that the only part of the mode that they actually like is the antag part.  Why keep a mode that people don't actually enjoy?  If the vast majority of nuke rounds resulted in the nukies leaving the nuke behind and then going to the station to shoot it up, would we bother to keep nuke as a mode?  I doubt it.  As it currently exists, gang does not have any real reason to exist.

From what I've seen, the general admin perception about gang is that putting limits on what they can do as antags is the wrong decision.  (For what it's worth, revolution seems to function fine with limits placed on what the revs are allowed to do.)  This leaves dealing with the self-antag portion the only real option.  Someone (I forget who, sorry) in deadchat one gang round suggested that gang members be randomly chosen at roundstart.  Would that actually help?  I don't know.

[Frank_Stein]

I think gang needs an greater emphasis on the Turf claiming and defense aspect. Wherever you place your locker should start as your turf, and for new turf to be claimed it should have to be adjacent to already owned turf.

This way, gangs can organically grow out from where they start.

Recruitment into gangs is also a problem. Since it's entirely voluntary, it's possible to never have anyone join, even if you slap your locker in the middle of the bar and leave pamphlets everywhere. This is a harder problem to solve.

I've said in the past I think REV and GANG should swap recruitment methods, with REV HEADS establishing some kind of base of operations where they can get propaganda pamphlets to get people to join and weapons to pass out once they hit size caps, while GANG should involve initiation rituals like being beat up or killing someone, but that's a matter of opinion and taste.

I do think we should consider why people join gangs IRL...mainly as a means of protecting themselves from a harsh environment. Joining a gang in GANG MODE should be about establishing safety from other Gangs. It might be helpful to give Gangs objectives to harass certain areas and departments, so people that work in that area might be encouraged to join a Gang for revenge or resources to defend themselves with.

[Sundance]

Not going to add much here, but I will say a very simple but big improvement is if the suit, exosuit and hat was forced.

This used to be the way, but it was changed for some reason? Idfk why.

"But their clothing isn't space worthy / resistant to cold vented rooms!"

That's literally the point. Gangers will remain station bound and will be mindful that their actions doesn't fuck up the station. 

I'd go so far as making the mask forced, but I think the threat of suffocation is a bit too unfair. 

I'd also restrict gangs to max 3 teams, and each gang can only recruit 4 players (5 if you include the leader), and cannot replenish their team members. I'd think it'd be neat if gangers would get their ID swapped out with a different title (Bruiser, trasher, etc) and have weapons specialized to them. Not unlike nuke, but randomized.

[Lady Birb]

Make gangsters physically incapable of using bombs or signalers again. Make gang outfits mandatory again. Prevent heads of staff from starting as gang leaders.

[Frank_Stein]

I'd also restrict gangs to max 3 teams, and each gang can only recruit 4 players (5 if you include the leader), and cannot replenish their team members. I'd think it'd be neat if gangers would get their ID swapped out with a different title (Bruiser, trasher, etc) and have weapons specialized to them. Not unlike nuke, but randomized.

I like the idea of them having a certain role they get to play on the team, but you should totally be able to recruit more guys if one dies...as long as the leader remains alive. Let them bestow the gang titles like monikers so you go from Staff assistant George Melons to public enemy number 1 George "Babyface" Melons.

[GORE]

Not able to use signalers? Woah - slow down there.

If I wanna do three beaker-bombed with Capulettium, Jenkem and a sprinkle of Sugar and Mercury...then I damn well should be able to pull that off.

Forcing the suit is too harsh.
I'd rather see stronger buffs for wearing the suit and stronger de-buffs when not wearing it.

For example - if you are around other gangs gang-members who are wearing their outfit but you are not...then you should receive a decently sized de-buff.
This would at least incetivice to wear ones suit when dealing with other gang-members. From time to time it is nice to disguise oneself to wreck havoc by sabotaging security.
I think such a situational de-buff would be the right solution.

In the past I have heard an idea from some admin that bought items from the gang locker should be supplied for every gang-member and I agree. Needs some exceptions on cars and that stuff...and on thinks like Jank-Tank since it is really cheap already...but that would be nice to work more together for one goal.

[kyle2143]

I agree with a lot of points said in here. I haven't seen gangs vent and blow up the station a lot but when it happens it sucks big time. I'm really not sure how to fix that mechanically other than stopping them from building bombs and such. Maybe deducting points from gangs if station turfs are destroyed. Only other way is a rule change.

I also really like Frank's idea of only capturing areas adjacent to areas your already own. I had planned to do that, but I have worried about gangs that try to make a base on the diner or like the sea turtle. And I havent come up with the solution to account for both. Since the sea turtle and other things like research on oshan are on the station z level. Maybe if i just made a list of illicit areas to capture or make a base on, but that's kinda bad.

[Frank_Stein]

I agree with a lot of points said in here. I haven't seen gangs vent and blow up the station a lot but when it happens it sucks big time. I'm really not sure how to fix that mechanically other than stopping them from building bombs and such. Maybe deducting points from gangs if station turfs are destroyed. Only other way is a rule change.

I also really like Frank's idea of only capturing areas adjacent to areas your already own. I had planned to do that, but I have worried about gangs that try to make a base on the diner or like the sea turtle. And I havent come up with the solution to account for both. Since the sea turtle and other things like research on oshan are on the station z level. Maybe if i just made a list of illicit areas to capture or make a base on, but that's kinda bad.

If Gang roles were a thing, that could be one members special, capturing turf that isn't adjcent. Would let the Gang leader promote their first member to that and let them capture more turf

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

Maybe turf doesn't count when it's vented or otherwise destroyed? They're trying to take the station, that would be pointless if it cannot sustain life.

[Carbadox]

Adding a rule that states not to cause collateral damage / mass destruction would probably be the best and easiest solution

[Lady Birb]

Maybe deducting points from gangs if station turfs are destroyed.

Maybe turf doesn't count when it's vented or otherwise destroyed? They're trying to take the station, that would be pointless if it cannot sustain life.

I think you are missing the fact that 90% of people who build bombs during gang rounds don't care about objectives at all and just want an excuse to murderbone.

[kyle2143]

Maybe turf doesn't count when it's vented or otherwise destroyed? They're trying to take the station, that would be pointless if it cannot sustain life.

Hmm, that's pretty good. We already loop through captured areas every minute or so, we could just check a random turf in the area and see if it's vented, or the air group, idk how that works offhand. 

My only concern there is that a gang might vent another gang's turfs to harm them. Like, it wouldn't be a good idea because then eventually capturing it would mean nothing, but people still might.

[GORE]

Could the change of healthy turfs on already claimed zones affect gangs negatively...BUT...when claiming a zone (from another gang or just straight up claiming one un-claimed yet) then the status of said turf-zone should not negatively impact the gang claiming it.

Destroying turfs from other gangs specifically does not sound too bad.
But how would one know which turf is owned by another gang easily?
I think there needs to be a greater visual clue...like an outline to the room or some paint decals which are way more obvious.

As it stands one can hide gang sprays beneath cloners, vending machines, tables, bushes,...
Yeah - not really easy to see.

[Lady Birb]

Maybe turf doesn't count when it's vented or otherwise destroyed? They're trying to take the station, that would be pointless if it cannot sustain life.

Hmm, that's pretty good. We already loop through captured areas every minute or so, we could just check a random turf in the area and see if it's vented, or the air group, idk how that works offhand. 

My only concern there is that a gang might vent another gang's turfs to harm them. Like, it wouldn't be a good idea because then eventually capturing it would mean nothing, but people still might.

I think you are missing the fact that 90% of people who build bombs during gang rounds don't care about objectives at all and just want an excuse to murderbone.

[Sundance]

Following on Birb's point, I do feel there's little to no incentive for Gang members to not murder / explode everything and instead follow the "passive" route of just tagging, collecting dollahs and dank.

I recall one round where a Gang of 3-4 just went on a complete murderbone, massacring crew and gang alike and ended up losing because of an opposing Gang in Botany of 2 basically unarmed weed growers who just tagged stuff.
Thing is, there was little to no repercussion of this behavior, them losing didn't really lend any credence. Just a bunch of eyerolls and tutting that they went against the grain of what Gangs should be. 

And that's the problem, if there's nothing imposed, then people will just choose to do whatever. In contrast, Nuke Ops almost always follow their objectives. 
Why is that? It's because their objective is clear and laid out to them and there's repercussions for them failing to do this. 

But while I don't think it needs to be as stringent as Nuke Ops, I do feel that there should be a pop-up law set for Gangs, which would save a lot of headache in terms of coding and balance.

The "Gang Code" should be 3 rules that gangs must adhere to, and these can be worded to how you see fit. It might be odd imposing rules on an antagonist, but I do feel it would actually be much more fun in the long run.