Revert the Security Requistion Vendor

[TDHooligan]

following from a prior discussion in ooc i'd like to suggest some stuff for support sec:

Right now it's insanely good if you're HoS, who already has two tasers. The robust donuts are, per slot, very powerful right now, arguably a best in slot med item. But there's only two for a round that could be either insanely chaotic or completely calm. I don't think i'd ever share them.
As for sec themselves, they eat the donuts and they're down a taser and have nothing to show for it.

I think there's good potential for a much more social, real 'support' officer able to dish out some valuable pseudo-medicine to crime victims and fellow officers, or just scoff them down himself for a 'fat security' roleplay. Could be a good officer for those wanting a more social job, and improve sec's PR a little bit.
- Significantly nerf robust donuts' reagent volume, so each donut will be worth maybe one and a half bites of the current Robust Donut.
- Buff the per-bite healing by a few points, kick-starting Sec's ability to deal with cuts and scratches without a Medbay visit
- Move robust donuts to a food synthesizer style oven, with a 3~5 minute cooldown

The (potentially) infinite donut quantity but lower value per item slot means a Support officer could feasibly hold a couple for themselves, but will also be able to throw a donut here and there for crime victims or fellow officers.

[Drago156]

So I didn't realize that this change was made specifically to cut down on security tools, so uh yea. Also this really doesn't stop people from printing out small cells and just swapping those on the go, nor someone just grabbing riot shotguns from the armory and hacking out the buckshot, flares, and rubber slugs from the ammotech.

I'm personally of the view that fun > balance in terms of game mechanics for ss13, so for me, I've never personally cared if someone took all the security tasers or something or if it's balanced, because if I had to deal with something like that I know there's always a counter if you're willing to put in the effort.

Is it kind of cheap, sure. Is it incredibly unrobust and powergamey, most certainly. But there are ways around it. You can buy pills of meth easily from the diner and combine that with robust coffee and food buffs to mostly negate tasers, not to mention hacking into the armory for the armor, which will further your stun resist. In terms of weaponry, you can get a phaser for free in debris as well as the classic fire extinguisher from almost any where on station. Welding masks are actually pretty easy to get and counter flashes much like sunglasses, which are also not hard finds. Meaning ultimately batons are the biggest threat after this, and even then you can just as easily just shove them out of the other person's hand and take it.

I far from see this as the right way to balance stun equipment, and really don't find it a fun way. This change kind of makes combat closer to the same and more boring, as well as kind of screwing the crew if no security signs up for the round. Now the ideas of maybe limiting belts and backpacks with the number of weapons they can hold is one I support. Maybe two or three one handed weapons and a single two-hand in backpacks/satchels/fanny packs and one or two one hands in belts.

[Caro]

Potentially bad idea: make the tokens scannable

[GORE]

Nay.

Scannable tokens ---> Easy infinite security gear (not just one item per token but SEVERAL)

[mbc]

We've placed some backup tokens (along with new deployable turrets) into an armory locker on all maps. Hopefully this hits a good middle ground of accessibility.

[GORE]

I think the changes overall made me change my mind on the new sec-tokens.

Having a pin pointer to your gear pieces if quite thrilling. Having someone steal it evolves into a fun chase!

Extra tokens are also nice! Earlier today I deluxe mindslaved a traitor with his own traitor points and due to the spare tokens I was able to get him some security equipment! That is what I value!

Sometimes it is nice being able to deputize folks.

It would just be lovely if those extra tokens were not limited to the locked crates. Imagine myself a few rounds in the future. I find a trusted buddy but he has no gear. So I wanna give him a token...but since I am sole sec I cannot get him to receive sec-gear...as I need 3 people with access to do so,...

And if there are 3 people with access to do so I hardly need any extra sec-tokens.
How did I manage to deputize the mindslaved fellow with me being sole sec? He had an emagg. Otherwise that would have never worked.

[Trustworthy]

I'm gonna side with Sundance and Drago on this one, limiting how many weapons belts and potentially backpacks can contain would prevent Mr Crime having six tasers, without making spawning as security the only way to viably fight antagonists, apart from raiding the armory, which the antagonists have probably done already. Considering goon already has an issue with players being too apathetic, I don't think we should be limiting the crews ability to fight back like this. Now, even recruiting new secoffs is impossible, making solosec a pain. Meanwhile, limiting the weapons you can carry won't affect security, deputised crew, or crew fighting against antags, but will affect people who carry security's entire arsenal on them. I'd fully support this as a replacement for security loadouts.

[Frank_Stein]

I got to mess with it a bit and my thoughts were basically

• Okay I like that it's kinda built with strength in mind
  
• I kinda wish it was more like the Nuke, where you pick a choice in from a few categories of [main weapon] [side arm] [storage]
  
• I like the idea of a pinpointer but actually carrying that around feels like it's taking up space. A PDA app would take less space, but...
  
• ... The Sec lockers feel redundant. I guess I'll just put the pinpointer in there
  
• Ya know, I feel like if the token gave you more gear than you'd want to carry, you could store extra in personal locker in here that just is a sec locker with your name
  

I'd like to see variations of the concept of tasers and batons offered. For instance, a baton that doesn't have a stun but a high disarm and shove rate

[OMJ]

Why would you guys want to prevent antags from getting stunning weapons? Dumb fucking change. Didn’t realize this was the tradeoff. Goon’s turned very soft. Maybe encourage people to try to fight rampagers instead of catering to the Charmin soft playerbase who can’t deal with someone who stole a gun and batons. I agree w/Drago. I thought the change was cool but I never saw that this is the only way to get shit. Slowly but surely goon’s turning into an RP server by constantly shooting gameplay type shit in the foot

[Caro]

So, I suddenly noticed another issue about the current state of sec vendors, after writing a post in the other thread

This change basically buffs cap/HoP antags even more, because they are currently the only roles that can just order batons and tasers from QM easily, while having the chance to roll antag.

So, if this change was meant to prevent antags from getting sec gear... you're doing it wrong

Naturally, the next logical step would be removing sec crates from cargo. But it will just cause more issues, as secoff who got mugged won't be able to buy their equipment back, and in case of a nukie round, the crew will basically be armless.

I just wish we could revert the sec vendors and tool buffs and try to solve the problem of the current meta in some other way

[GORE]

There is no ordinary mortal threat that cannot be stopped by a barrier and a taser.

[Sundance]

I just wish we could revert the sec vendors and tool buffs and try to solve the problem of the current meta in some other way

*Gestures wildly at previous post*

[Mouse]

Why would you guys want to prevent antags from getting stunning weapons? Dumb fucking change. Didn’t realize this was the tradeoff. Goon’s turned very soft. Maybe encourage people to try to fight rampagers instead of catering to the Charmin soft playerbase who can’t deal with someone who stole a gun and batons. I agree w/Drago. I thought the change was cool but I never saw that this is the only way to get shit. Slowly but surely goon’s turning into an RP server by constantly shooting gameplay type shit in the foot

When was the last time you even played?  Do you know who has been complaining about this shit?  It's not the people who don't fight rampagers.  It's the people who do, who are getting sick of folks running around with every single taser and baton on the station five minutes in.

[DJ-Fireball_did_this]

Tasers being somehow more powerful than seemingly any other weapon, including the actual lethals, doesn't help.

[CaptainBravo]

• I like the idea of a pinpointer but actually carrying that around feels like it's taking up space. A PDA app would take less space, but...
  
• ... The Sec lockers feel redundant. I guess I'll just put the pinpointer in there
  

kind of a lame response post since i'm not addressing a lot else that's been said, but these two thoughts are actually what's intended. you're supposed to hide your pinpointer in one of the sec lockers or something so people can't steal it off of you when they take the rest of your stuff.