A few changes to detective

[Trustworthy]

Following numerous conversations over Discord about how the role is currently being used as sec with lethals, and how people are going detective just because its really powerful if you get antag, I've decided to take some of those suggestions I heard and post them on the forums. The main purpose of these suggestions is to make the detective more Cole Phelps, and less armed beat cop.

Ideas:

• Remove the detective's security access, and promote the idea that they're not part of security.
  
• Either get rid of their stunning rounds completely, or heavily restrict their access to them. Personally, I think the best way to do this would be to remove the SecTech in their office, so they have to manage with the rounds they start with. This would make detectives actually have to think before shooting, since if they waste all their stunners on a slightly suspicious staff assistant, its a pain in the ass to get more.
  
• Alternatively, or along with the previous suggestion, nerf the stun rounds. A good idea would be to make them a better version of the bullets the NTSO's Clock uses, where they apply disorientation, a bit of stamina, but can't actually be used for stunlocking people.
  
• Make the detective more focussed on forensic work, whether by letting them get forensic evidence by examining the object up close instead of using a scanner(still have to check prints and stuff in a computer), or by giving them glasses that highlight forensic evidence like luminol does, but for gunshots in walls and more, too.
  
• Remove their access to thermals. Personally, I think this is a bad idea as the detective's job is to find and foil the plans of stealthy antagonists, and cloakers are exactly that, not to mention they have one of the only two pairs on the entire station, the other belonging to the HoS.
  
• Finally, treat a detective who hunts down antags like a security officer is meant to as you would a vigilante, or a sechop. Its not their job. Their job is to investigate and interrogate, and the only time they should be performing an arrest is when they see someone committing a crime literally in front of them, or other special circumstances.
  

I don't want the detective to become a useless or gimmick job, far from it. But I do feel like these changes could both open up more chances for rp, improve the quality of the round, and make the detective have its own, distinct role on the station. Feel free to suggest more things in the comments and I'll add them to the list. I probably missed some of the stuff we discussed on Discord.

[Gerhazo]

"Remove their access to thermals. Personally, I think this is a bad idea as the detective's job is to find and foil the plans of stealthy antagonists, and cloakers are exactly that,"
This sounds like an oxymoron unless I'm mis-understanding the sentence, unless you mean their job being finding stealthy antagonists means that it should be harder for them.
Also you further down also mention that they shouldn't be hunting down antags, which also confuses me.

And the following are purely personal opinions and predictions of mine:
Detective by itself is not a very unique job at the moment, a cooler looking security officer with slightly different tools (a revolver with stun bullets instead of a taser), though with having slightly more forensics-related equipment than most. Even though not very interesting, that's how I've always seen the role and never had an issue with it.
This thread aims at making that slightly different, with the point of that currently they're just being used for hunting down antags, but I don't feel it accomplishes that, even makes it much worse.
It's not uncommon for there to be no or a very lacking security team on station, at which point the detective often fills the gap. This also means that they don't always have an audience to share their forensic findings with.
Making it so that they are not part of the security further excarbates that problem: who would they relay their findings to? Security that already also has forensic tools and would now have to put trust in a person they're not even related to department-wise, doesn't seem very likely and doesn't happen often already. Crewmembers hiring them? I also find that very doubtful to occur. And now, as not part of the security team, you have an armed person with tools to identify criminals/antagonists and who's also entirely on his own: if you already thought detective was focused on just hunting antagonists, that seems to take it to even a higher degree with it being their only purpose as a loose cannon, reinforced by the also suggested nerfs to their non-lethal capabilities.

Just my personal opinion in that I don't see this working out in practice the way you'd expect.

[Trustworthy]

Something I'd like to make clear is that these are not only my ideas, but suggestions I took from the discussion on the Discord on how to change the role for the better. In regards to the thermals, that was a suggestion given by someone else, which, while I personally disagree with, is still a valid suggestion. With hunting antags, I didn't mean they should just sit in their office and do nothing, I meant they shouldn't be actively chasing a suspect through maintenance, when the rest of security could do that easily.

Same thing when I say that they shouldn't be seen as part of sec, I don't mean they shouldn't have access to the channel, I mean that they shouldn't be viewed the same way as a security officer, rather, a separate part of security. Perhaps I worded it wrong, but I never meant for it to become a civilian role. I'd agree with your point on the lack of a security team meaning a detective is needed, but honestly? From what I've heard from other players, the presence of a certain person is actually what stops them playing security, meaning the presence of the detective is what has caused security to be so empty, recently.

As I've said, these aren't exclusively my personal views, or things that all have to be in, right now this second. Its a list of suggestions from a conversation between a large number of people on the Discord, on how they feel detective could be changed. Nothing here is a definite thing that we want, done in that exact way. I just felt like it was a good idea to post this on the forums, to A)Get peoples opinions on some of these changes, B)See what other changes people think would be a good idea, and finally C)Let the folks in charge know that we feel the detective is due a rework. None of these suggestions have to be followed, but the purpose of them should be taken into account.

[polivilas]

Hello! I'm a detective player that plays pretty much on low-activity hours, because of timezones.
I think it is lack of information that leads to misconception.
For one example. .38 stunners are the exact same as taser shots - 1:1, stam damage and debuffs included - you just don't notice it, because secoffs finish up with a baton, and not firing the taser further - detectives don't have the liberty of having a stunbaton, usually.
Secondly, regarding their access or power - What would stop detective from ditching the stunners, taking lethals, and just putting a whole belt full of tasers? It would already work quite well, considering how easy it is to get to them.
Thermals, for example - take any generic 30pop round with no HoS. What kind of 'counterplay' there is past getting borgs to point at them constantly?
For other points, I think Gerhazo hit the nail on the head.
EDIT: I'm pretty sure det's aren't treated as secoffs. From my experience, people not trusting detectives is pretty much a given.

[KikiMofo]

I think we have this discussion at least once a year about changing detective. I personally feel as a detective main that detective is at its best place its ever been right now. I dont wish for any changes. Thats my opinion.
Also I actually do agree about the .38 stunners. I never use them and only use lethals because I dont want my gun to be my main thing. If I have to use my gun it should be because Im ready to kill.
Also in addition, generally if the detective is firing their gun at people the whole crew turns on them. No one really sees detective as part of sec except for sec if they are actually helping sec with stuff.

[Frank_Stein]

If I have to use my gun it should be because Im ready to kill.

I agree with this on theory, because I also believe the detective shouldn't be making arrests, and if they do get in a fight it should be because shit has hit the fan. 

What I think is an untapped area in Detective's potential is stealth. Their two best stealth abilities are the radio stickers and their handheld camera, which let them watch and listen from a remote location. However, there's not much beyond that.

Perhaps they could use some face mask tech for changing their appearance for undercover work like tailing someone, or a limited cloaking device built into their coat.

[Vengarr]

I'd like to see forensics buffed, but only for the Detective. Let them start with a Detective Training trait, the way medical doctors get their own trait to make surgery less dangerous..

For instance, let them get partial fingerprints from insulated gloves. And since they have all of the crew memorized, they can match fingerprints and DNA to crewmembers without having to look them up. They can tell how old a bloodstain is from examining it, or identify many common poisons by sight...that sort of thing.

Perhaps they could use some face mask tech for changing their appearance for undercover work like tailing someone, or a limited cloaking device built into their coat.

I really, really like the idea of a Question-like face changer, but the Detective would have to be a guaranteed non-antag for this not to be grossly overpowered.

[KikiMofo]

I like the idea of the detective being sneaky and not someone that arrests people because thats how I play detective. I just inform sec over the radio if I see some kinda crime. The only time I ever use my gun is if someone is trying to kill me or its like a wizard or changeling trying to fuck people up. I dont know about a cloak or face changer but I would like it if the detective could see better in the dark as an inherent trait. As part of being sneaky I like to scoot around through the tunnels following people and watching. I really do miss when thermals could see people through walls and stuff because that was one of my favorite things to do.

[Frank_Stein]

I was thinking an effect like this, where it's not quite invisible so much as low opacity, maybe only applied to the coat, hat, gloves, and maybe the mask if that's a thing 

[Leeanei]

The main problems with the det are the fact that the revolver is almost as strong as the e-gun, if not stronger for sheer endurance in a firefight. The stun rounds make it outright oppressive and are a stronger projectile than the taser in terms of range, speed and visibility. It's legitimately outrageous how strong the revolver is, switching between stun rounds and lethals. From experience, I worry more about most antags as sec than I do as a detective, and that's probably not right. Hell, the det has stronger armor than nukies!

I think Gerhazo is also correct that detective fills an important role in sec. I also agree with the people who say detective is not sec and should not be trusted, because the det can roll antag while armed with one of the strongest weapons. Both are reasonable positions to take, and they are fundamentally opposed. That's a problem.

[Drago156]

As an HoS who has seen a number of detectives (and played it for a little) I think Detective is in a fine spot right now. Detectives in my opinion are 100% a part of Security, but lower on the chain of command that a standard security officer. They've been hired by NT to be a support to Security and do a lot of the undercover and investigative work behind the scenes while the actual officers deal with the main threats in force and number. I'd say that the stun rounds being so powerful is less about themself being powerful and more with how bad of a nerf stuns doing stamina is. The detective has the stun and lethal rounds they have to take on any stealthy antags and at least maybe hold their own until back up arrives, and while they can get a lot of stun rounds back, they most certainly can't get more than 4 speedloaders of lethal, and 2 of those have to come from an HoS. As for their antag status, I feel it's fine, it ties them to a sketchier background of perhaps more of a street or personal justice system from before they got hired by NT which allows them to be more flawed than that of the pure justice that officers and HoSes go through in their training.

[Sundance]

Agreed with Drago, Poli and Kiki.. Detective is in a good place right now in terms of his position. I do agree that stun bullets could be eased off a little - removing it from the sec vendor should be sufficient. As others outlined, limiting it will move it from offense to defense.

Although, there's a few minor points to be made that would greatly improve forensics and investigation work. It's the detectives thing sure, but security oft take up the mantle as does the HoS. Forensics take the backseat, but that's only because of the high chaos of rounds. Here's some thoughts which I've gathered over the years, by observing the equipment detective uses day to day:

- Buff remote camera by porting it over to the new system

- Spy stickers should also act as cameras, but the speech should be limited specifically to the detectives headset (to avoid text bloat). In that light, detective should get a new headset to match gathering this intel.

-  The camera needs to have two modes: Portrait and Landscape. Portrait is the normal setting of single picture (which has uses in spy/wanted posters/mugshots) while landscape takes a 3x3 or 5x5 (whichever feels balanced) shots. This has been moaned for years. Plz.

- The blood tracking thing is a bit misguided. It's not used at all. Detective should get a deluxe version of the forensic scanner which does both.

- Thermals. They're rarely used and I think buffing the vision was also a bit misguided as it threads on toes of NV Goggles (which should be outside the armory imo, maybe two in the open in sec HQ). Instead, they:
A) View if an item has prints (indicated by little 3x3 dots on items/doors/walls)
B) See corpses easily (which give off a little glow outline, maybe tie in with decomposition)
C) See players easily (which also give of a little glow outline - cloakers glow outline is only visible, appearing as unknown)

It should however come at a much bigger caveat. It should not let you see further in the dark and being in the view of hotspots/fire will begin to hurt your eyes (along with the rest of current negativeness). For that reason, it might be good to have it toggable on your hud.

Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

[cyberTripping]

- Thermals. They're rarely used and I think buffing the vision was also a bit misguided as it threads on toes of NV Goggles (which should be outside the armory imo, maybe two in the open in sec HQ). Instead, they:
A) View if an item has prints (indicated by little 3x3 dots on items/doors/walls)
B) See corpses easily (which give off a little glow outline, maybe tie in with decomposition)
C) See players easily (which also give of a little glow outline - cloakers glow outline is only visible, appearing as unknown)

It should however come at a much bigger caveat. It should not let you see further in the dark and being in the view of hotspots/fire will begin to hurt your eyes (along with the rest of current negativeness). For that reason, it might be good to have it toggable on your hud.

This entire post is good, but I just need to mention how much I adore this thermals idea. It would both push thermals into being useful, and make using them align really well with the Detective's stated goal of, well, doing detective work. Prints being visible would go a long way towards promoting forensics investigation, in my opinion.

[KikiMofo]

Personally I never use the cameras because I dont like not being able to see around my own character, Just doesn't feel right for me. I would be down for the thermals letting us see prints, players and corpses better. I mean you really should be able to see someone in a dark tunnel if you have thermals on.

[Frank_Stein]

- Thermals. They're rarely used and I think buffing the vision was also a bit misguided as it threads on toes of NV Goggles (which should be outside the armory imo, maybe two in the open in sec HQ). Instead, they:
A) View if an item has prints (indicated by little 3x3 dots on items/doors/walls)
B) See corpses easily (which give off a little glow outline, maybe tie in with decomposition)
C) See players easily (which also give of a little glow outline - cloakers glow outline is only visible, appearing as unknown)

It would be nice to wack the thermals with a forensic scanner and have them highlight the last bit of forensic evidence scanned as you find it around you

The glow outline is a good idea because if it shows up brightly even in the dark you do still get an advantage in dark areas spotting people, and if the outline was an overlay you'd see the heat signature without having to reveal the person causing it